# Are environmentalists cowards on immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086 "2011-06-11T06:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/281 "2011-06-17T03:57:31Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Sorry, nowhere do they point at immigration. As reported already, the water authorities do not concentrate on immigrants as the future usage of water by them is not really predictable. [Population growth in the US is largely driven by immigration](http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85). > [@](#): > > **If current trends continue, the population of the United States will rise to 438 million in 2050, from 296 million in 2005, and 82% of the increase will be due to immigrants arriving from 2005 to 2050 and their U.S.-born descendants, according to new projections developed by the Pew Research Center**. > > Of the 117 million people added to the population during this period due to the effect of new immigration, 67 million will be the immigrants themselves and 50 million will be their U.S.-born children or grandchildren. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/282 "2011-06-17T04:01:34Z")
Of course, you are still trying to extirpate immigrants from the population, in the end you are proposing that we should be like a ranger that demands that a all deciduous trees be removed from the forest before using water on the huge fire already taking place. And, you know what the word “if” means, no? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/283 "2011-06-17T04:05:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course, you are still trying to extirpate immigrants from the population, in the end you are proposing that we should be like a ranger that demands that a all deciduous trees be removed from the forest before using water on the huge fire already taking place. I’m saying waters supplies are already strained - read the report. Demand is exceeding supply and population growth is an issue. Immigration is largely driving population growth. I’m not talking about “extirpating” existing immigrants from the population (nice emotional rhetoric). I’m talking about prospective immigration going on current trends. > [@](#): > > If current trends continue, the population of the United States will rise to 438 million in 2050, from 296 million in 2005, and 82% of the increase will be due to immigrants arriving from 2005 to 2050 and their U.S.-born descendants, according to new projections developed by the Pew Research Center. > > Of the 117 million people added to the population during this period due to the effect of new immigration, 67 million will be the immigrants themselves and 50 million will be their U.S.-born children or grandchildren. [http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85](http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/284 "2011-06-17T04:11:20Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Refusing to address US population growth via immigration does seem rather illogical from an environmental perspective. I will let others be the judge of that, as explained before, when 85% of the Sierra Club and the vast majority of respected environmentalists go one way, I would think it would be a stretch to get stuck on accusing them or me of being illogical. The opinion of experts carry more weight than the ponderings of a few posters on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/285 "2011-06-17T04:13:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I will let others be the judge of that, as explained before, when 85% of the Sierra Club and the vast majority of respected environmentalists go one way, I would think it would be a stretch to get stuck on accusing them or me of being illogical. > > The opinion of experts carry more weight than the ponderings of a few posters on a message board. I’ve already pointed out to you why your position is illogical. You seem ill equiped to respond. Appeals to authority don’t cut it when your basic argument makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/286 "2011-06-17T04:14:48Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I’m saying waters supplies are already strained - read the report. Demand is exceeding supply and population growth is an issue. Immigration is largely driving population growth. I’m not talking about “extirpating” existing immigrants from the population (nice emotional rhetoric). I’m talking about prospective immigration going on current trends. > > [http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85](http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85) And once again, you think that me and others are not concerned about the population pressure.. The denial of what environmentalists are saying is strong here. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/287 "2011-06-17T04:16:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And once again, you think that me and others are not concerned about the population pressure.. > > The denial of what environmentalists are saying is strong here. The denial of what causes population growth in the US is definitely strong here 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/288 "2011-06-17T04:18:17Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I’ve already pointed out to you why your position is illogical. You seem ill equiped to respond. Appeals to authority don’t cut it when your basic argument makes no sense. 🙂 I think you need to take a remedial course of when an appeal to authority is a fallacy. An appeal to authority fallacy like when one wants to push an expert on astronomy or a philosopher as authorities on environmentalism. Ring any bells? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/289 "2011-06-17T04:23:41Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The denial of what causes population growth in the US is definitely strong here 🙂 The point remains, most are American citizens or their descendants will be. All will have to deal and help with the issue. [http://www.splcenter.org/greenwash-nativists-environmentalism-and-the-hypocrisy-of-hate/the-greening-of-hate-an-essay](http://www.splcenter.org/greenwash-nativists-environmentalism-and-the-hypocrisy-of-hate/the-greening-of-hate-an-essay) > [@](#): > > All over the world, in rich and poor countries alike, people are using the climate crisis as an opportunity to link ecological goals with new kinds of economic and technological development that raise living standards without razing the environment. > > But the anti-immigrant movement has only one solution for global warming: stop immigration ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/290 "2011-06-17T04:24:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > 🙂 > > I think you need to take a remedial course of when an appeal to authority is a fallacy. I’ve provided you with authorities on the issue of [population growth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13924016&postcount=244) in the US in terms of the environment. You haven’t rebutted this. You also haven’t rebutted that the main cause of population growth in the US is immigration. If there’s something I’m missing let me know. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/291 "2011-06-17T04:25:40Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I’ve already pointed out to you why your position is illogical. In point of fact, you have done no such thing — firstly, because _I_ was the one who made the moral argument, not **GIGObuster** , and secondly, because you have failed to address the (quasi-)ethical argument I made, except to falsely call such things “ideological”. Incidentally, if you dislike immigrants and want to help the environment, you shouldn’t go after the Sierra Club. Go after the agriculturalists in California who hire mostly immigrants to try to grow stuff in the desert. Getting rid of that would go a long way to handling the water problems. Of course, there are also other comparatively simple fixes you could support. For example, why on earth should lawns even be legal in, say, Phoenix? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/292 "2011-06-17T04:26:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The point remains, most are American citizens or their descendants will be. All will have to deal and help with the issue. No, we are talking about prospective immigration - population growth that hasn’t happened yet & could be addressed via sensible policy decisions. > [@](#): > > **If current trends continue, the population of the United States will rise to 438 million in 2050, from 296 million in 2005, and 82% of the increase will be due to immigrants arriving from 2005 to 2050 and their U.S.-born descendants, according to new projections developed by the Pew Research Center.** > > Of the 117 million people added to the population during this period due to the effect of new immigration, 67 million will be the immigrants themselves and 50 million will be their U.S.-born children or grandchildren. [http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85](http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/293 "2011-06-17T04:33:57Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I’ve provided you with authorities on the issue of [population growth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13924016&postcount=244) in the US in terms of the environment. You haven’t rebutted this. You also haven’t rebutted that the main cause of population growth in the US is immigration. > > If there’s something I’m missing let me know. I did not rebut them as I explained that they are not a reason to concentrate on immigration, it is really just you that is assuming that those cites are a problem for my position, on the contrary. It is clear you are still thinking that magic will help separate the immigrants when a solution is implemented. And it will affect all the population. And once again, when you deny that the nativists are not doing anything about the other related issue of the footprint, the immigration issue is moot. Your nativist sources are just trying to convince others to make immigration worse in the end. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/294 "2011-06-17T04:38:06Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > In point of fact, you have done no such thing — firstly, because _I_ was the one who made the moral argument, not **GIGObuster** , and secondly, because you have failed to address the (quasi-)ethical argument I made, except to falsely call such things “ideological”. > > Incidentally, if you dislike immigrants and want to help the environment, you shouldn’t go after the Sierra Club. Go after the agriculturalists in California who hire mostly immigrants to try to grow stuff in the desert. Getting rid of that would go a long way to handling the water problems. > > Of course, there are also other comparatively simple fixes you could support. For example, why on earth should lawns even be legal in, say, Phoenix? Yep, and for my part I do not have a lawn, and I do not plan to get one if I ever get a home, and not in the suburbs. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/295 "2011-06-17T04:38:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I did not rebut them as I explained that they are not a reason to concentrate on immigration, it is really just you that is assuming that those cites are a problem for my position, on the contrary. It is clear you are still thinking that magic will help separate the immigrants when a solution is implemented. And it will affect all the population. > > And once again, when you deny that the nativists are not doing anything about the other related issue of the footprint, the immigration issue is moot. Your nativist sources are just trying to convince others to make immigration worse in the end. Heh, you’re the one talking of magical solutions. I’m referring to the comments about population growth in the US. Immigration is an obvious way of addressing that. Presumably in 1989 you would also support that as in that year the Sierra Club position was: > [@](#): > > “Immigration to the U.S. should be no greater than that which will permit achievement of population stabilization in the U.S.” Would you have followed the Sierra Club then, or would you have come up with another reason to ignore this? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/296 "2011-06-17T04:53:10Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > No, we are talking about prospective immigration - population growth that hasn’t happened yet & could be addressed via sensible policy decisions. > > [http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85](http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85) And once again, IF. I think the info is good from PEW, but I could not find anything disparaging the immigrant effects on the environment, and remember that the report that debunked most of the anti immigrant points reported that the carbon footprint of the cities with the most immigrants is less than the carbon footprint of the cities with less immigrants. Unfortunately, as demonstrated, sensible is not a property of the nativist organizations cited before. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/297 "2011-06-17T04:54:44Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Heh, you’re the one talking of magical solutions. I’m referring to the comments about population growth in the US. Immigration is an obvious way of addressing that. Presumably in 1989 you would also support that as in that year the Sierra Club position was: > > Would you have followed the Sierra Club then, or would you have come up with another reason to ignore this? Heh, I guess you also missed what I said about timelines and conservatives eh? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/298 "2011-06-17T05:00:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And once again, IF. > > I think the info is good from PEW, but I could not find anything disparaging the immigrant effects on the environment, and remember that the report that debunked most of the anti immigrant points reported that the carbon footprint of the cities with the most immigrants is less than the carbon footprint of the cities with less immigrants. > > Unfortunately, as demonstrated, sensible is not a property of the nativist organizations cited before. Population growth on the environment. Immigrants largely drive population growth. Also, do you think immigrants aren’t going to increase their SES in the years ahead? Why not? > [@](#): > > \*\*Beyond increasing water demand, population growth across the region portends a range of negative impacts that include deteriorating air quality, additional urban “sprawl” and congestion, reductions in open space, and increased levels of traffic and strained transportation systems. Each additional person entails an increase in water demand of, roughly, at least 140 gallons per day (and often more). \*\*p54 > > Water transfers will no doubt continue to be used to meet increasing water demands, and municipalities, tribes, farmers, and other water users will continue to develop innovative means for effecting these transfers. But growing populations will nonetheless act to offset “gains” in water supplies achieved by transfers. It is recognized that population growth and higher water demands are reducing the region’s ability to cope with drought and increasing the potential for conflicts over limited water supplies (see, for example, the Department of Interior’s Water 2025 website: [http://www.doi.gov/water2025/](http://www.doi.gov/water2025/)). The limits of Colorado River water supplies, increasing populations and water demands, warmer temperatures, and the specter of recurrent droughts point to a future in which tension and conflict among existing and prospective new users are likely to be endemic…p61 > > Technological and conservation options for augmenting or extending water supplies—although useful and necessary—in the long run will not constitute a panacea for coping with the reality that water supplies in the Colorado River basin are limited and that demand is inexorably rising. p132 > **[Read "Colorado River Basin Water Management: Evaluating and Adjusting to...](https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/11857/chapter/4#61)** > > Read chapter 2 Historical and Contemporary Aspects of Colorado River Development: Recent studies of past climate and streamflow conditions have broadened ... The President’s Council on Sustainable Development emphasized this point repeatedly in its 1996 Population and Consumption Task Force Report: > [@](#): > > “Stabilizing the population without changing consumption and waste production patterns would not be enough; neither would action on consumption and waste without efforts to stabilize population. Each is necessary; neither is sufficient.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/299 "2011-06-17T05:12:35Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Population growth on the environment. Immigrants largely drive population growth. I guess you do not understand, I said already that you are assuming that those cites are a problem for my position, on the contrary. They will be useful to crack some stubborn members of the community that do not plan their families. > [@Chen019](#): > > Also, do you think immigrants aren’t going to increase their SES in the years ahead? Why not? Once again, I do not think the politicians elected with the help of the nativists will remain forever in office. the evidence of climate change disruptions will be overwhelming and people will demand a change. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/300 "2011-06-17T05:19:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I guess you do not understand, I said already that you are assuming that those cites are a problem for my position, on the contrary. They will be useful to crack some stubborn members of the community that do not plan their families. > Once again, I do not think the politicians elected with the help of the nativists will remain forever in office. the evidence of climate change disruptions will be overwhelming and people will demand a change. 1. They are a problem for your position if your position is that US population growth (largely driven by immigration) isn’t an environmental issue. 2. Bill Clinton was a nativist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086.md?page=16)