# Are environmentalists cowards on immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086 "2011-06-11T06:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/321 "2011-06-18T03:24:01Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Again - how many times do you need something explained to you before you grasp it - I’m not suggesting there is one single solution. I’m asking why, amongst a suite of policy options, it is forbidden to consider restricting immigration? Already explained, so.. Meh. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/322 "2011-06-18T03:24:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > **Gigo** , two simple questions, which might help me, and others in understanding your position: > > 1. Do you think it is valid for any environmentally concerned group or citizen to expend energy looking at any environmental issue other than global warming? > > 2. Do you think it sensible that an environmentally concerned group or citizen expend energy on local environmental issues, like various “Save the Bay”, “Save the XXXXX River”, etc.? > > It would be helpful if you could answer with a definitive “yes” or “no”, then expand your answer as you think it necessary or helpful > > Thanks.. Good questions - although unsurprisingly anyone who did so would automatically become an evil nativist in **Gigo** ’s eyes. This stems back to my point about environmentalits being cowed - who wants to incur the wrath of people like that? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/323 "2011-06-18T03:26:09Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Already explained, so.. You haven’t explained anything. You’ve said you have a non-environmental, but emotional, basis for refusing to allow this to be considered and hence smear anyone who raises it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/324 "2011-06-18T04:55:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Now, **Chen,** do you finally understand what everyone is getting at? > > Never mind your water-resources figures, your demographic stats, etc., for the moment. Remember my little lecture about how ad hominem is not always a fallacy? This is one of the situations where it applies. What we have here is a serious policy dispute within the Sierra Club, with one faction backed by John Tanton and associated organizations, and the other side backed by Morris Dees and the SPLC. Now, the average American of any color, presented with this situation (and sufficient background on the persons and organizations involved), would have two quite reasonable reactions: > > 1. **Of course** it’s about motherfucking **race,** are you trying to be funny or something?! :dubious: > > 2. The SPLC must be in the right here. Not because the SPLC is always in the right, but because, historically, its opponents **are** always in the wrong; and “racial realists” or “nativists” or whatever you call it what Tanton is are **never** right. > > And **you** look at the same series of events and you see environmentalists being “cowed” into “silence” by . . . the “by” part isn’t all that clear. But it is clear enough that you are not posting from the Earth with the **blue** sky. Of course there is that, and looking at the big picture, and after looking at the way climate change deniers operate for years, it is clear to me that the nativists/fake environmentalists have some uses for them. Many of the followers of the fake environmentalists are not able to notice when they are being pandered. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/325 "2011-06-18T05:17:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course there is that, and looking at the big picture, and after looking at the way climate change deniers operate for years, it is clear to me that the nativists/fake environmentalists have some uses for them. Many of the followers of the fake environmentalists are not able to notice when they are being pandered. That is great and a nice diversion from my question. Why should US population growth and immigration reduction (immigration being the major cause of population growth) off the table as a policy option? That makes no sense from an environmental perspective. You may have other reasons for ruling it out as an option, but in terms of environmental concerns in the US it is only logical to consider it. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/326 "2011-06-18T05:23:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Now, **Chen,** do you finally understand what everyone is getting at? > > Never mind your water-resources figures, your demographic stats, etc., for the moment… Don’t worry about inconvenient facts like [cities running out of water](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13924016&postcount=244)! What do you think this is? And any environmentalist who mentions immigration is an evil racist - never ever forget that! ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/327 "2011-06-18T05:32:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And you look at the same series of events and you see environmentalists being “cowed” into “silence” by . . . the “by” part isn’t all that clear. Intellectual climate where suggesting immigration restriction = moral wickedness ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/328 "2011-06-18T07:19:17Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > And any environmentalist who mentions immigration is an evil racist - never ever forget that! :rolleyes: Yes, that would appear to be the case. In any case, Tanton and those who think like him, “nativists” or “White Nationalists” or “racial realists” or whatever you call them, can hardly be characterized nonpreposterously as “environmentalists who mention immigration.” Nor, for that matter, by any description with “environmentalists in it”. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/329 "2011-06-18T07:58:22Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Science predicts that world population will peak at 9 billion or so, but that is an unsustainable total. That many souls can only be achieved on this planet if we sacrifice all remaining wildlands and species upon the altar of unchecked growth. The track record of science when predicting can’t is pretty awful. Something tells me that prediction assumes current technology and current practices. Probably not a good basis for extrapolation. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/330 "2011-06-18T11:23:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Yes, that would appear to be the case. In any case, Tanton and those who think like him, “nativists” or “White Nationalists” or “racial realists” or whatever you call them, can hardly be characterized nonpreposterously as “environmentalists who mention immigration.” Nor, for that matter, by any description with “environmentalists in it”. But when it comes to pro-immigration organizations, especially the Jewish ones, you never look behind their reasons for transforming America. This is from Frontpagemag (a Jewish magazine) and the article is written by a Jew: [Why Jews welcome Muslims](http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=12534) > [@](#): > > First of all, as crazy as it may sound, there is something that many American Jews fear in their heart of hearts even more than they fear Moslem anti-Semitism, and that is white Christian anti-Semitism. > **snip** > The self-protective instinct to divide and weaken a potentially oppressive majority population may have served Jews well at certain times and places in the past when they truly were threatened. They use immigration just to feel safe themselves. Nativists use environmental issues just to feel safe themselves. Where’s the difference BrainGlutton? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/331 "2011-06-18T11:34:07Z")
You don’t see the difference between lobbying for immigration so that immigration doesn’t stop, and lobbying for “the environment” so that immigrations stops ? Well, then: one’s open, to the point and straightforward; the other is misdirection, muddying up the waters and dishonesty, not to mention the very kind of cowardice and “moral wickedness” (WTF?) the OP is crowing about. Glad we could clear that up for you. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/332 "2011-06-18T11:49:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You don’t see the difference between lobbying for immigration so that immigration doesn’t stop, and lobbying for “the environment” so that immigrations stops ? > > Well, then: one’s open, to the point and straightforward; the other is misdirection, muddying up the waters and dishonesty, not to mention the very kind of cowardice and “moral wickedness” (WTF?) the OP is crowing about. Glad we could clear that up for you. Can’t you read? The reason they are pro-immigration is that they feel safer in a multicultural environment. They don’t care about the immigrants. They just care about what’s best for their own wellbeing. Just like the nativists. If you **really** want to help poor people, you should not take them to the US at all. Here’s a video to educate you: [Immigration, World Poverty and Gumballs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/333 "2011-06-18T11:50:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > not to mention the very kind of cowardice and “moral wickedness” (WTF?) the OP is crowing about. Glad we could clear that up for you. Yes, moral wickedness. This is achieved by linking racism to any suggestion of reducing immigration. It’s a hugely effective means of shutting down debate and silencing opposition. You will have noticed that in this discussion there isn’t any real environmental reason to support US [population growth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13924016&postcount=244), but there are good reasons to suggest it be reduced. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/334 "2011-06-18T12:05:21Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yes, moral wickedness. This is achieved by linking racism to any suggestion of reducing immigration. If that suggestion is coming from the mouth of a guy who’s a noted white supremacist and whose “environmentalist” efforts have so far been in fact demonstrably in support of people who are AGW deniers then yeah, that’s a workable link. You might have noticed that that Clinton link you love bring forth again and again isn’t being attacked on the same grounds, in fact it’s not attacked at all. Not to mention it puts the lie to your seminal assertion that environmentalists never touch population control with a 10 foot pole, but I guess that’s cognitive dissonance for ya. I also love how you’re now quoting yourself as a proof that your position is supported. Like your usual barrage of repeating the same crap over and over and over ad nauseam isn’t enough, now you’ve gone full recursion. My cardboard cutout can barely keep up ! ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/335 "2011-06-18T12:13:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > If that suggestion is coming from the mouth of a guy who’s a noted white supremacist and whose “environmentalist” efforts have so far been in fact demonstrably in support of people who are AGW deniers then yeah, that’s a workable link. > You might have noticed that that Clinton link you love bring forth again and again isn’t being attacked on the same grounds, in fact it’s not attacked at all. Not to mention it puts the lie to your seminal assertion that environmentalists never touch population control with a 10 foot pole, but I guess that’s cognitive dissonance for ya. > > I also love how you’re now quoting yourself as a proof that your position is supported. Like your usual barrage of repeating the same crap over and over and over ad nauseam isn’t enough, now you’ve gone full recursion. My cardboard cutout can barely keep up ! 1. No it isn’t, it’s simply used to create a climate where immigration can’t be discussed any more honestly than the economic benefits of communism under Stalin. 2. If you think I’m some kind of supremacist you haven’t been paying attention. I acknowledge [human biodiversity](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7265/full/461726a.html), as does Peter Singer. I suppose you’ll be calling him a supremacist next? 3. The Clinton link is being attacked - read some of GIGO’s comments above. 4. As for environmentalists and population control, see the Sierra Club’s sudden change in the 90’s. 5. I’m quoting my earlier post because it summarizes some of the arguments and evidence that people like GIGO & yourself are determined to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/336 "2011-06-18T12:25:10Z")
1. Yes it is. 2. Tanton’s the supremacist. 3. It’s not being attacked on the same grounds. Reading comprehension, dude. 4. And since the Sierra Club is the only environmentalist thinktank out there… oh wait, it’s not ! 5. If it didn’t convince people then, why do you think it’s going to be convincing now ? Look, whatever, don’t bother. You’re right, I made a mistake. I started engaging you in dialogue again. Couldn’t help myself. I apologize and I won’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/337 "2011-06-18T12:30:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > 1. Yes it is. > 2. Tanton’s the supremacist. > 3. It’s not being attacked on the same grounds. Reading comprehension, dude. > 4. And since the Sierra Club is the only environmentalist thinktank out there… oh wait, it’s not ! > 5. If it didn’t convince people then, why do you think it’s going to be convincing now ? > > Look, whatever, don’t bother. You’re right, I made a mistake. I started engaging you in dialogue again. Couldn’t help myself. I apologize and I won’t do it again. Sorry, I’ve been conversing with GIGO Buster for so long I’m not used to someone engaging in dialogue. I keep repeating it because he/she simply keeps reciting the same stawmen arguments about population growth not being the only issue & about whether or not some groups lobby against climate change. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/338 "2011-06-18T12:31:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? > > The US may have an increase in population but the country the immigrant left has a decrease in population. > > Bottom line there are “X” number of people on the planet. As regards the global environment why does it matter where they are? We’re all on the Earth (somewhere). > > I suppose you could make a case for a local impact if people move into a given area but that is a different thing. People who move to the United States usually increase their level of consumption, and consequently the environmental cost of their existence. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/339 "2011-06-18T12:33:27Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > 1. As for environmentalists and population control, see the Sierra Club’s sudden change in the 90’s. The man behind the Sierra Club’s sudden change is a Jewish donor. But no one checks his **real** motive behind the action… ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/340 "2011-06-18T12:37:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > 1. It’s not being attacked on the same grounds. Reading comprehension, dude. > 2. And since the Sierra Club is the only environmentalist thinktank out there… oh wait, it’s not ! > on’t do it again. Just in relation to the Clinton report - you’ll note that even then they have to absolutely tip-toe around the issue of immigration - despite population stabilization being an important goal. As for the Sierra Club - it isn’t the only one but it is (from their website) _America’s largest and most influential grassroots environmental organization._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086.md?page=18)