# Are environmentalists cowards on immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086 "2011-06-11T06:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/481 "2011-06-21T04:53:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The full background was that that was not a secret by 2005, you would think then that if it was blackmail then most members would had voted in protest, the vote was even worse for the ones pushing to make an environmentalist group to focus on immigrants. > > It was more likely that the Sierra Club members were convinced by the information they got regarding the intentions of the proponents of the change from the neutral position and what you see as blackmail is in reality just one important member that complained thanks to the information that they found and provided regarding those groups. > > [http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200405/ways\_printable.asp](http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200405/ways_printable.asp) > > Blaming the loss on a single donor is just sour grapes. The initial shift from the leadership in the 90’s appears to have been due to big money. The subsequent position makes little sense in terms of US population stabilization. Accordingly, it seems more to do with political expediency. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/482 "2011-06-21T05:03:48Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The initial shift from the leadership in the 90’s appears to have been due to big money. The subsequent position makes little sense in terms of US population stabilization. Accordingly, it seems more to do with political expediency. What “political expediency” would that be? And the “subsequent position” makes perfect sense in terms of **choice of priorities.** ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/483 "2011-06-21T05:04:15Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The initial shift from the leadership in the 90’s appears to have been due to big money. The subsequent position makes little sense in terms of US population stabilization. Accordingly, it seems more to do with political expediency. According to the link, it was most likely the political expediency of the ones looking to turn the clock back. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/484 "2011-06-21T06:05:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What “political expediency” would that be? > > And the “subsequent position” makes perfect sense in terms of **choice of priorities.** It is simply negligent on the issue of population growth - that’s what it is. Political expediency? To appease wealthy donors, to pursue ‘social justice’ goal and to appear diverse & progressive. Those are all fine goals, but as I’ve pointed out - they are non-environmental reasons. > [@](#): > > Even organizations like the Sierra Club, which has incorporated social justice work since the 1990s, concede that their diversity efforts have failed to gain traction. The organization’s executive director, Carl Pope, points at “cultural barriers” that in effect shut the door to nonwhites regardless of good intentions. > > “If you go to a Sierra Club meeting, the people are mostly white, largely over 40, almost all college-educated, whose style is to argue with each other,” Mr. Pope said. “That may not be a welcoming environment.” [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/science/earth/10move.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/science/earth/10move.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/485 "2011-06-21T14:04:29Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Political expediency? To appease wealthy donors, to pursue ‘social justice’ goal and to appear diverse & progressive. If you want to find “wealthy donors” influencing the immigration debate in America, you won’t have to look very far – but your first hit is not likely to be the “progressive” sort of businesscritter, he’s probably somebody whose company **hires** illegals, and who has never cut a check to the Sierra Club in his life. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/486 "2011-06-21T14:24:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If you want to find “wealthy donors” influencing the immigration debate in America, you won’t have to look very far – but your first hit is not likely to be the “progressive” sort of businesscritter, he’s probably somebody whose company **hires** illegals, and who has never cut a check to the Sierra Club in his life. Also the previous cite from Chen019 shows even more of the background, environmentalists groups are also changing to help the people who are most affected by pollution, they are usually minorities and their descendants. Looking at the limited diversity a good number of the environmentalists groups had, it is even more likely that some members did not like the changes at all, but for other more unsavory reasons. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/487 "2011-06-21T14:39:38Z")
I recall a cartoon I once saw in the _Whole Earth Review_ or something, titled “A Short History of Immigration.” PANEL 1: Guy 1: What a beautiful spot! 🙂 Guy 2: Hey, I was here first! :mad: PANEL 2: [they fight] PANEL 3: G2: [puff-puff] All right . . . you can stay . . . PANEL 4: G3: What a beautiful spot! 🙂 G1 & G2 together: Hey, we were here first! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/488 "2011-06-21T14:59:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I recall a cartoon I once saw in the _Whole Earth Review_ or something, titled “A Short History of Immigration.” > > PANEL 1: > Guy 1: What a beautiful spot! 🙂 > Guy 2: Hey, I was here first! :mad: > > PANEL 2: > [they fight] > > PANEL 3: > G2: [puff-puff] All right . . . you can stay . . . > > PANEL 4: > G3: What a beautiful spot! 🙂 > G1 & G2 together: Hey, we were here first! :mad: While cute, why do you bring this up? Do you oppose nationhood? Borders? The right of a country to craft their own immigration policy? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/489 "2011-06-21T17:14:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I recall a cartoon I once saw in the _Whole Earth Review_ or something, titled “A Short History of Immigration.” Which is a hijack, having nothing to do with environmentalists, that we do not need to continue. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/490 "2011-06-21T17:34:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > While cute, why do you bring this up? Do you oppose nationhood? Borders? The right of a country to craft their own immigration policy? Not that it matters, but _I_ do, in principle. In practice, of course, it’s not a workable stance. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/491 "2011-06-21T22:25:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not that it matters, but _I_ do, in principle. In practice, of course, it’s not a workable stance. Can you explain? I’m not sure what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/492 "2011-06-21T22:39:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > While cute, why do you bring this up? Do you oppose nationhood? Borders? The right of a country to craft their own immigration policy? What I oppose is loss of perspective. E.g., Pat Buchanan forgetting how his ancestors came to America and saw “No Irish Need Apply” signs whenever they looked for work. [Lyrics!](http://ameba.lpt.fi/~zaphod/lyrics/no_irish_need_apply)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/493 "2011-06-22T00:15:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Can you explain? I’m not sure what you mean. He means that while nobody has the ethical right to say “this is my land”, in practice it’s kind of hard to reverse the statu quo. IOW, life is unfair, wear a hat. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/494 "2011-06-22T00:23:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What I oppose is loss of perspective. E.g., Pat Buchanan forgetting how his ancestors came to America and saw “No Irish Need Apply” signs whenever they looked for work. What I oppose is people not answering questions. Since I still don’t get your position, could you simply answer the simple questions I asked you? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/495 "2011-06-22T00:24:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > He means that while nobody has the ethical right to say “this is my land”, in practice it’s kind of hard to reverse the statu quo. IOW, life is unfair, wear a hat. Enter the Amazing Kreskin. Now, how about you answer those questions for yourself. I’d like to see where you come out. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/496 "2011-06-22T00:30:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What I oppose is people not answering questions. Since I still don’t get your position, could you simply answer the simple questions I asked you? I’m an [internationalist](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=613399) in the most broad and general long-run sense. **Of course** in our present system of state sovereignty, border control is properly incident to sovereignty. That means nobody has the “right” to enter a foreign country – **in exactly the same way** that nobody has the “right” to leave his own country, as some are not allowed to. Just to keep things in their proper perspective, **magellan01.** Remember, when you’re talking about border control you’re talking about the business of the **state,** not the **nation.** ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/497 "2011-06-22T00:38:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m an [internationalist](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=613399) in the most broad and general long-run sense. **Of course** in our present system of state sovereignty, border control is properly incident to sovereignty. That means nobody has the “right” to enter a foreign country – **in exactly the same way** that nobody has the “right” to leave his own country, as some are not allowed to. Not being able to enter a country is similar to not being able to leave one? That’s ridiculous. In the same way in trying to say that locking someone out of your house is similar to locking them in. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Just to keep things in their proper perspective, **magellan01.** Remember, when you’re talking about border control you’re talking about the business of the **state,** not the **nation.** You’ll have to parse that for me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/498 "2011-06-22T21:49:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Can you explain? I’m not sure what you mean. I philosophically oppose nationhood and the idea of borders (and consequently the “right” of countries to craft their own immigration policies). All regulated borders are exercises in force - and ultimately, violence. Of course, this isn’t a workable stance when there are so many others who both believe in borders and are willing and eager to either detain, injure or even kill me over them. I get my visas, get my passport stamped and go through customs like any dutiful nationalist. I just don’t think it’s how things should be. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/499 "2011-06-23T01:51:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I philosophically oppose nationhood and the idea of borders (and consequently the “right” of countries to craft their own immigration policies). All regulated borders are exercises in force - and ultimately, violence. > > Of course, this isn’t a workable stance when there are so many others who both believe in borders and are willing and eager to either detain, injure or even kill me over them. > > I get my visas, get my passport stamped and go through customs like any dutiful nationalist. I just don’t think it’s how things should be. The flipside is that you think countries have no right to exist. It’s the kind of thinking that makes people like the Dalai Lama nervous. > [@](#): > > The Han influx could result in Tibetans becoming a minority in their own land and is seen by Tibetans as the greatest threat to the survival of Tibetan culture and identity. The Dalai Lama says this policy of ‘demographic aggression’ has led to ‘cultural genocide’ in Tibet. The population of Lhasa, Tibet’s capital, has grown six fold since the Chinese occupation and currently two thirds of its citizens are Chinese. [http://www.freetibet.org/about/migration](http://www.freetibet.org/about/migration) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086/500 "2011-06-23T02:13:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’ll have to parse that for me. You, as a member of the American ethnocultural nation, the American **people,** have no “right” to keep foreigners out of your country, no “right” that is violated when they cross the border, legally or illegally. The U.S. government has the **authority** to control the border – but not because you as a citizen/voter demand it; every government, regardless of form or popularity, has the same authority to the same degree of legitimacy **exactly.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-environmentalists-cowards-on-immigration/585086.md?page=26)