# Are EU Europeans Any Closer To Losing Their National Identity? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 21, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629 "2011-11-21T11:30:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BeaMyra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BeaMyra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeaMyra)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/1 "2011-11-21T11:30:49Z")
With all the talk of the Euro and EU in the news, I was wondering if Europeans, who are in nations in the EU currently feel any closer to being “European” rather than affiliated with their own nation. I realize that the EU is not an attempt to create a United States of Europe, but a looser organization, but I was wondering with the ties the EU brings, like common currency (in some nations) and ability to go from country to country (well somewhat) do they feel any closer to being united in a common way? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/2 "2011-11-21T11:46:15Z")
As a non-euro, non-Schengen EU European I think the sense of national identity is absolutely undimmed. I’m sure people more at the core of Europe do feel a closer bond with each other now, and as a visitor travelling between, say, the Netherlands and Belgium can be a bit confusing as they look so similar, but like many things, it’s not a zero-sum game: you can have a strong sense of identity and add to it a larger identity without losing the former. In all the places I’ve been in the EU, the only place where I felt a commonality of ‘Europeanness’ was in Brussels, and that was among young people (of many nationalities) who worked for the European Commission, so not really a representative sample. ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/3 "2011-11-21T11:52:20Z")
As a euro, Schengen EU European, pretty undimmed national identity here. “Any closer”, yes, but only to a very limited extent. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/4 "2011-11-21T11:56:25Z")
Here in britain people don’t feel very european at all. In fact people will often use the term europe as shorthand for _continental_ europe, i.e. “them”. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/5 "2011-11-21T12:59:17Z")
I think in Britain’s case we are pulled in two directions - we’re European, but we’re part of the Anglosphere. New Zealand, say, probably feels less foreign to Brits than Germany does. On the other hand, despite our affinity with American culture, if you visit the USA it can sometimes feel like a very foreign country. I don’t really remember the time when Britain wasn’t in the EU or its forerunner, but no, I don’t think it makes me identify any less as a Brit, first and foremost. ---
**Author:** ![raskolnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47c2d/32.png) [@raskolnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raskolnik)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/6 "2011-11-21T13:27:39Z")
I feel I have nothing in Common with the english. I’m american, but of pure south europe and catholic stock. Thus I find myself getting along with greeks and Mexicans about as well as with the english. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/7 "2011-11-21T13:40:47Z")
That’s not _really_ the question the OP was asking, though. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/8 "2011-11-21T13:42:24Z")
It would help if Euro posters would write down their countries as well. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/9 "2011-11-21T13:50:47Z")
I don’t see it here. We have the Euro and are quite EU friendly (compared to the British anyway) but even though we’ve lost our economic sovereignty to the EU and IMF the Irish are still very Irish and have a destinct culture and outlook\* that is our own and one that the majority is very proud of. \*Similar to all other Western Nations but with a Irish twist, nothing special as I’d imagine all countries are like this. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/10 "2011-11-21T13:54:30Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I don’t see it here. We have the Euro and are quite EU friendly (compared to the British anyway) but even though we’ve lost our economic sovereignty to the EU and IMF the Irish are still very Irish and have a destinct culture and outlook\* that is our own and one that the majority is very proud of. > \*Similar to all other Western Nations but with a Irish twist, nothing special as I’d imagine all countries are like this. What Yojimbo says would be my experience too. I’m Irish and I’m European. These identities aren’t in conflict. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/11 "2011-11-21T14:01:24Z")
Outsider here, but this rings very true to me: > [@jjimm](#): > > …like many things, it’s not a zero-sum game: you can have a strong sense of identity and add to it a larger identity without losing the former. I suspect EU integration may end up _ **reinforcing** _ the identities of those who already think of themselves primarily as (for example) Flemings/Catalans/Corsicans/Sicilians instead of Belgian, Spanish, French or Italian. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/12 "2011-11-21T14:58:32Z")
Europe is a very diverse continent and IMO it was naive (of all involved) to think that economic unity would overcome cultural and political differences. There is no real european identity, there is only the intention to cooperate. European parliament is a non-stop roadshow of powerless indicisiveness costing millions of euros. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/13 "2011-11-21T15:51:29Z")
> [@BeaMyra](#): > > I realize that the EU is not an attempt to create a United States of Europe, Oh but it is. The whole point of the EU is to be exactly that. This is expressly confirmed by the architects of EU. They want a Federal Europe with centralised powers, fiscal, defence the whole lot. It can be very difficult to have a sensible discussion on this because as soon as you say you think Europe is not working as it is, people automatically think you want to pull out. Not so, I just think that the current direction the continent is headed is suicidal and unsustainable. Witness what happened in Greece and Italy. The Brussels mandarins don’t like your democratically elected governments? tough, they’ve got to go and be replaced with something that Brussels likes. That is the future and not something I’m happy about. Personally, I think a roll back from closer integration and a re-think will do us good. I don’t think trying to shoe-horn very ancient and very different cultures into one state will be successful. Ask Scotland, Ireland England and Wales, or the Balkans, or Russia how well that has worked. It is clear that people crave devolution rather than closer integration. Unfortunately, there are powers that don’t want that to happen, and currently no real mechanism to challenge them. To the OP - I’m from the UK and very proud to be both British and European. British first, probably a member of the commonwealth second and European third. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/14 "2011-11-21T16:46:18Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I think in Britain’s case we are pulled in two directions - we’re European, but we’re part of the Anglosphere. New Zealand, say, probably feels less foreign to Brits than Germany does. On the other hand, despite our affinity with American culture, if you visit the USA it can sometimes feel like a very foreign country. > > I don’t really remember the time when Britain wasn’t in the EU or its forerunner, but no, I don’t think it makes me identify any less as a Brit, first and foremost. Of course the UK is interesting as many subdivisions rejects the concept of a British identity whereas the largest subdivision (England) has arguably lost its, instead living through the concept of “Britain”. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/15 "2011-11-21T17:54:03Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > British first, probably a member of the commonwealth second and European third. The Commonwealth? Really? I don’t think many Britons ever think about or are even particularly aware of the Commonwealth, other than in a vague “We used to own all that stuff” way. It’s almost entirely politically irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/16 "2011-11-21T17:59:48Z")
_Soy navarro lo primero y por navarro español…_ (I’m Navarrese first of all, being Navarrese makes me a Spaniard…) _Canción navarra_, by Moreno Torroba It also makes me European, but newsflash: Navarra has been Europe since the concept of Navarra first came to be, people living here were European before we were Navarrese. If we’ve managed to keep our identity through some 500 years of our rulers trying to forget it even exists (the anniversary of the invasion by Castillian troops working as mercenaries for Aragon is next year), I’m reasonably sure we’ll be able to keep it for an itty bitty while longer. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/17 "2011-11-21T18:17:38Z")
EU, Schengen area, Euro area (Germany), and I don’t think my or my acquaintance’s sense of national identity is affected in any way. European integration is a boon for personal and business day-to-day life (e.g. it used to be a PITA to send urgent spare parts to, say, Hungary just a decade ago, and now it is as easy as domestic), which makes it much easier for small businesses to operate internationally, but I don’t think it much affects one’s sense of identity (which for Germans is partly local, partly tribal, partly national anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/18 "2011-11-21T18:39:08Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > To the OP - I’m from the UK and very proud to be both British and European. British first, probably a member of the commonwealth second and European third. Yep, “British” identity is a bit interesting. How many people identify as British first rather than English, or Scottish, or Welsh? ---
**Author:** ![azraiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@azraiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/azraiel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/19 "2011-11-21T19:08:43Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yep, “British” identity is a bit interesting. How many people identify as British first rather than English, or Scottish, or Welsh? The specific term for this is the “Moreno question” and it’s been widely asked in the past couple of decades. Here is an article by the question’s developer: [http://www.scottishaffairs.org/onlinepub/sa/moreno\_sa54\_winter06.html](http://www.scottishaffairs.org/onlinepub/sa/moreno_sa54_winter06.html) And here are the results from a very small survey in 1999: cite: Taylor, B., & Thomson, K. (Eds.). (1999). Scotland and Wales: Nations Again? Cardiff:University of Wales Press. Scottish only 45%; Scottish more than British 40%; British more than Scottish 14%; British only 1%; Neither 1% (_n=670_) Welsh only 27%; Welsh more than British 36%; British more than Welsh 32%; British only 3%; Neither 3% (_n=684_) You can find more recent polls and numbers for English responses if you look around some–I don’t have the English numbers readily available. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/20 "2011-11-21T20:44:30Z")
I found it interesting in a “People will never give up their national identity! I’m British, not European!” way, when “British” is itself a self-consciously artificial multinational identity. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629.md?page=2)