# Are EU Europeans Any Closer To Losing Their National Identity? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 21, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629 "2011-11-21T11:30:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/21 "2011-11-21T20:57:41Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > The Commonwealth? Really? I don’t think many Britons ever think about or are even particularly aware of the Commonwealth, other than in a vague “We used to own all that stuff” way. It’s almost entirely politically irrelevant. But from a cultural point of view I do have more of an affinity with Australia, New Zealand et al than I do with, say, the USA. ---
**Author:** ![aesop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f8ce5/32.png) [@aesop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aesop)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/22 "2011-11-21T21:21:27Z")
> [@BeaMyra](#): > > With all the talk of the Euro and EU in the news, I was wondering if Europeans, who are in nations in the EU currently feel any closer to being “European” rather than affiliated with their own nation. > > I realize that the EU is not an attempt to create a United States of Europe, but a looser organization, but I was wondering with the ties the EU brings, like common currency (in some nations) and ability to go from country to country (well somewhat) do they feel any closer to being united in a common way? It does not feel like that in Hungary. We are Hungarians first, eastern (actually central) Europeans second, and Europeans a distant third. And we’re not exactly chummy with all our neighbors, either. Remember, we’ve had more than a thousand years of conquering and being conquered by each other. 🙂 Schengen is cool and we love the ease with which we can cross the continent, but don’t think for a second we’ve forgotten the indignities of Trianon. And we are SO going to get back what once was ours. (Or so the conservative wingnut parties would have you believe.) ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/23 "2011-11-21T23:14:52Z")
I grew up in the Netherlands & England and then lived all over, and I never understood feelings of nationalism. It just seems sick to me. All places have good and bad, affiliating yourself with a place regardless of its faults and the merits of another place just isn’t rational. A little European identity to counter the crazy nationalism seems like a good idea to me, just not too much so that it, in turn, becomes the new nationalism (“continentalism”?). This is my impression: I’m in the UK now, and people here really hate the EU. They tragically believe the rubbish they hear from some of their more idiotic politicians (the old ‘straight cucumber-myth’!). I think many Brits still live in a delusional world where the UK is of any importance as a global player. In the Netherlands the people seem to like the EU more (they’re actually just less delusional about the status of their former empire), but don’t necessarily identify more as being “European”. I think the only time people are really aware of it is when you queue for passport control at the airport. You go in “EU queue”, or you wait a looong time. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/24 "2011-11-22T00:06:15Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > But from a cultural point of view I do have more of an affinity with Australia, New Zealand et al than I do with, say, the USA. I’m exactly the same,I don’t consider Aussies or Kiwis as foreigners at all,they just live somewhere else and have different governments. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/25 "2011-11-22T08:40:22Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I’m exactly the same,I don’t consider Aussies or Kiwis as foreigners at all,they just live somewhere else and have different governments. Yep, and the same is true of some of the West Indies, portions of India, perhaps Canada. Also, I’ve travelled and worked extensively in Europe and find a comfortable familiarity with the Scandinavian countries and Holland. More so than the Latin and Germanic nations. Having said that, my favourite place for holiday is actually Austria. I can see myself spending a lot of my year there on retirement. In terms of comfort and familiarity on a scale of 1-10 I’d put “British” as a 9, commonwealth as an 8, Europe as a 7 (with parts of it pushing an 8) and something like the USA as a 3 or 4. As someone mentioned upthread, we share so many superficial similarities but it feels so very foreign to me. I must stress…I love Europe as a whole, as much for it’s diversity as anything. I am “Europsceptic” but definitely think a trading and travel confederation of some sort can work. Just that the current model and direction ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/26 "2011-11-22T09:14:13Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > I think many Brits still live in a delusional world where the UK is of any importance as a global player. To be honest that has mostly been due to London’s position as a world financial centre (in 2009 it was widely reported that London had taken over New York as then world’s leading financial centre, it may or may not have switched back but the fact that it even happened shows that London is very important) and a culturally relevant city. Yeah, we accept it isn’t so much about politics anymore but, especially regarding finance, saying things like “Brits still live in a delusional world where the UK is of any importance as a global player” says a lot more about your prejudices and delusions than those of the Brits. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/27 "2011-11-22T10:01:51Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > I think many Brits still live in a delusional world where the UK is of any importance as a global player. I was with you all the way until that. Brits are acutely aware that we’re a small fish now, and this contributes to the sense (for some) that things were better before and Britain has lost its way. And, as **amanset** points out, in some senses we _are_ important as a global player. You don’t have to be a superpower to have global influence in one or more ways. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/28 "2011-11-22T11:47:11Z")
I think that **GRACER** is unaware that militarily Britain is one of the worlds major players, and that is without considering its nuclear armaments. Also lets not forget Britains seat on the U.Ns security council, and its membership of the G8. The U.K. is also a major contributor to scientific development in the world, is a third world aid donor and many, many other things that as a rule we don’t blow our own trumpet about. We ARE a major player, not in some senses, but in actuality, what ever **gracer** s wish fulfillment dictates. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/29 "2011-11-22T12:59:53Z")
EU, Schengen, non-Euro. I can only answer the opening question with a no. On the other hand I don’t feel particularly nationalistic towards Sweden. I happen to live here and like it, but that’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/30 "2011-11-22T13:27:31Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I’m exactly the same,I don’t consider Aussies or Kiwis as foreigners at all,they just live somewhere else and have different governments. I’m Australian, and I also agree that the Commonwealth nations are much closer in shared values and cultures than any of us are with Americans, for instance. I’ve met many many people from all over the world, and the Brits don’t feel like “foreigners” to me. Different accent, but not a particularly different culture. Americans _do_ seem like “foreigners” to me. Canadians are a bit different due to the huge US influence, but the Canucks I’ve met have still seemed less “exotic” than the Yanks. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/31 "2011-11-22T18:45:49Z")
EU Barometer, the official polling instrument of the European Commission, has asked people tons of times and there is only a very small fraction of people that claims an EU identity. National identities are firmly in place, possibly more so now than 20 or 30 years ago. [QUOTE=Novelty Bobble] The whole point of the EU is to be exactly that. This is expressly confirmed by the architects of EU. They want a Federal Europe with centralised powers, fiscal, defence the whole lot. [/QUOTE] This is preposterous. To state that the EU is intended to be a United States of Europe vastly overstates the federalism that is part of EU integration today and that has been a part of it during EU’s history. Many, many scholars and politicians treat the EU as an intergovernmental rather than a supranational project, and particularly in recent years the stress on member states’ rights has increased I would say. Just because back 60+ years ago people talked about a United States of Europe does not mean that that is what came about. People designing institutions cannot plan that far ahead. ETA: I’m Dutch ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/32 "2011-11-22T18:54:23Z")
So far, no European in sight… ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/33 "2011-11-22T19:08:50Z")
I’d guess the only people you’d find who’d call themselves “European” primarily would be people in the diplomatic corps of these countries or perhaps their children. I met a group of Irish kids who had spent much of their childhood and teens in Brussels, Strasbourg etc. one time and they seemed distinctly less national than most other people I’ve met. I didn’t ask them what it was they felt they were but their accents, their comfort moving in and out of multiple languages, and their parents’ professions marked them out as very “European”. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/34 "2011-11-22T19:26:33Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I didn’t ask them what it was they felt they were but their accents,\*\* their comfort moving in and out of multiple languages,\*\* and their parents’ professions marked them out as very “European”. This might be special to an anglophone but there are tons of people in Europe who speak several European languages but don’t feel a bit more European because of it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/35 "2011-11-22T19:39:41Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > EU Barometer, the official polling instrument of the European Commission, has asked people tons of times and there is only a very small fraction of people that claims an EU identity. National identities are firmly in place, possibly more so now than 20 or 30 years ago. That can vary a lot by how the poll is phrased, though. Am I European? Yes, and I was European by pure geography before Spain joined the EU. If you ask me “what are you?”, is my automatic response “an European”? No, it’s “an engineer” (what’s the flag for that?). ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/36 "2011-11-22T19:41:25Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > If you ask me “what are you?”, is my automatic response “an European”? No, it’s “an engineer” (what’s the flag for that?). Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/37 "2011-11-22T19:44:38Z")
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK! … Federal, Democratic or unified? ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/38 "2011-11-22T20:06:56Z")
Mixed ancestry of two Euro & EU countries. I never felt very strongly patriotic for either of my places of origin. I would support a more centralised EU, provided that we first kick out some of those countries that shouldn’t have joined in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/39 "2011-11-22T21:13:32Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That can vary a lot by how the poll is phrased, though. Am I European? Yes, and I was European by pure geography before Spain joined the EU. If you ask me “what are you?”, is my automatic response “an European”? No, it’s “an engineer” (what’s the flag for that?). True. I’m sure you’re not the first one to realize this and that the smart folks at Eurobarometer figured this out. Give the social scientists some credit, even if they’re not engineers 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629/40 "2011-11-22T21:48:07Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > This is preposterous. To state that the EU is intended to be a United States of Europe vastly overstates the federalism that is part of EU integration today and that has been a part of it during EU’s history. Many, many scholars and politicians treat the EU as an intergovernmental rather than a supranational project, and particularly in recent years the stress on member states’ rights has increased I would say. Just because back 60+ years ago people talked about a United States of Europe does not mean that that is what came about. People designing institutions cannot plan that far ahead. > ETA: I’m Dutch It is precisely the destination intended from the beginning. It was the stated aim, it continues to be. It is a deeply undemocratic organisation, the last it wants is to allow the populations to have a say. Just look at the response to “no” votes regarding previous treaties and the response to the current financial woes. Every treaty has moved us closer to a single entity and sawn away the rungs to make any retreat a dangerous one. It has long been realised that you can’t get people there in one jump but incremental surrender of individual control and democratic power is the preferred way forward. No, it is a mess and a rethink is drastically overdue (and I must stress that I am a fan of close ties with Europe) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-eu-europeans-any-closer-to-losing-their-national-identity/603629.md?page=3)