And I don’t see the EU as being a uniting force, As An Gadaí said, globalisation of media etc. is more likely to be a larger factor.
Also important for unity was the impact of WWII. Technologically advanced, industrialised warfare and genocide meant that it now was truly possible to wipe out any given country. No longer could it be ring fenced and confined to the trenches and approved battlefields. I think that as much as anything forced the Europeans to kiss and make up. The concept of a European “entity” sprang from that realisation but I suspect that greater unity was going to happen with or without the EU, we’d just have called it something else.
This is priceless. You apparently don’t realize that arguing for the EU as a United States of Europe is to say that it is modeled on or looks like the United States of America, which is a federation. You apparently also don’t realize that this (the federal aspect in particular, replacing national governments as prime actors) is what some of those architects of European integration that you quoted up-thread had in mind, which is why they used this sort of terminology. You know, the architects whose designs have been implemented to perfection?
Here’s your problem. You use terms with a bunch of implications that you yourself don’t realize are there, and then people (or just me, in this case) call you out on the implications of what you’ve just said and you’re all like ‘but I never said that’. You did, you just don’t understand what it is that you’re saying, which is much worse. It’s you who should read back what you wrote, and see what it really says.
Still, I’m sorry that I hurt your feelings. Let’s kiss and make up.
I was kidding, you didn’t really hurt my feelings. It takes more than a bit of verbal jostling to do that. But yes, let’s agree to disagree as I think we’ve done as much as we can within the limitations of a message board.
As with so many of these discussions, the medium gets in the way. I reckon sitting down face to face in a pub with 568 ml of beer we would quickly clarify any problematic terminology and would probably be in broad agreement on most issues regarding Europe.
I beg to disagree. My greatest culture shock came when I was working in the US. It was quite a surprise to discover that I felt I had more in common with any random European guy (or gal) at the office than the US American guys I worked with every day. So even if Europeans have a strong national identity, there’s also a European identity which sets a European apart - somehow - from an Asian, American or African. I’d be slightly surprised if it wasn’t the same thing for Americans, Asians or Africans.
Recently, Littlebro was worried that we weren’t becoming “Europeans” as fast as he’d like.
I pointed out that Catalonia has been part of the Crown of Aragon since… well, I’m not sure and I’m feeling too lazy to look it up, but they were part of it by 1212 for sure; the personal union between the Crown of Aragon, Kingdom of Castille and Kingdom of Navarre became complete in the person of Emperor Charles V (early 16th Century); Aragon got gobbled up by Castille in the early 18th century; Navarra and Castille officially re-created the Kingdom of Spain in the early 19th century; the parts of Euskadi where the Nationalist movement is strongest are also the same which chose to be Leon instead of remaining within Navarre back in the 10th century…
His response: “Ah yes, that too is taking longer than some people thought.”
The EU is a “uniting force”, but mobility brought about by modern communications + Schengen, or programs such as Erasmus are doing more for that than the political structures. In Spain at least and as a general trend, local elections get greater participation than regional ones, regional greater than national, national greater than EU. Even when several elections happen on the same day, you get people who’ll vote in the closer election but not in those for higher levels of government.
How about reversing the question a bit. While the EU may not have broken down national identities, has it at least decreased the traditional animosities or rivalries the European nations have had toward each other.
I mean serious rivalries that could lead to war, not friendly stuff
ETA: And a “uniting force” is not the same as a “uniformizing force”. Nowadays Spaniards aren’t as likely to think that “Germans are all a bunch of square-heads” as back when we would rarely have met one, but that doesn’t mean Juan Español likes the exact same things and for the same reasons as Johann Deutsche does.