# Are European nations violating women's rights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416 "2013-10-16T17:48:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/21 "2013-10-17T09:37:22Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Regarding the issue of counselling before an abortion: that isn’t so strange here. There are lots of situation in which the law requires that you receive a phone call from counsellors. If you have witnessed an accident or something, you get a call for counselling. It’s a part of healthcare here, not pressure to change your mind. This! The Norwegian "Law regarding the termination of pregnancies starts like this. (My translation first) > [@](#): > > § 1. Society shall, to the extent possible, ensure all children the circumstances for a safe childhood. As part of this effort society shall ensure every citizen receives ethical guidance, sexual education, knowledge about domestic issues and an offer of family planning, thereby to create a responsible attitude regarding these question so that the number of terminations stays as low as possible. > > Changed by law 16 june 1978 > > § 2. If a pregnancy leads to serious problems for a woman, she shall be offered information and guidance on the support that society can offer her. The woman has a right to advice so that she herself can make the actual choice. > > If she finds, after guidance [etc., etc.] that she cannot complete the pregnancy … > > § 1. Samfunnet skal så langt råd er sikre alle barn betingelser for en trygg oppvekst. Som et ledd i dette arbeidet skal samfunnet sørge for at alle får etisk veiledning, seksualopplysning, kunnskaper om samlivsspørsmål og tilbud om familieplanlegging, for derved å skape en ansvarsbevisst holdning til disse spørsmål slik at antallet svangerskapsavbrudd blir lavest mulig. > > Endret ved lov 16 juni 1978 nr. 66. > § 2. Fører et svangerskap til alvorlige vansker for en kvinne, skal hun tilbys informasjon og veiledning om den bistand som samfunnet kan tilby henne. Kvinnen har krav på råd for selv å kunne treffe det endelige valg. > > … ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/22 "2013-10-17T10:00:53Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Maybe, but this thread is more about the comparison to Europe. Yes, but the OP introduced that comparison with a blatant strawman of an extreme pro-abortion-rights position that he claimed was common in the US: > [@ITR champion](#): > > When abortion is mentioned in the USA, it’s often asserted that women have a right to abortion when and where they want it, and that any restriction is a violation of their rights. The OP’s insinuation of hypocrisy among American abortion-rights advocates (because they don’t object to reasonable restrictions on abortion in Europe) rests precisely on this strawman assertion that American abortion-rights advocates **do** object to **all** restrictions on abortion in the US. Which they don’t. There may be an occasional loony on a messageboard here and there who holds such extreme pro-abortion views, but AFAICT there is no recognized spokesperson or advocacy group anywhere in the US abortion-rights movement that opposes **all** legal restrictions on abortion. So the OP’s premise about the consistency of US pro-choice views is fundamentally erroneous. Nobody except a few loons thinks it’s “violating women’s rights” to have some reasonable restrictions on abortion, either in Europe or in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/23 "2013-10-17T10:46:27Z")
It’s a position we see here on this board. And only from Americans. Hardly a strawman. The strawman is your constantly bringing up recognized spokespersons and advocacy groups. Nobody cares about those. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/24 "2013-10-17T11:08:17Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s a position we see here on this board. And only from Americans. Hardly a strawman. The strawman is your constantly bringing up recognized spokespersons and advocacy groups. Nobody cares about those. Nonsense. The OP was specifically talking about American abortion-rights _activists_, not just random American messageboard babblers. And **Asympotically fat** , the other poster I was responding to when I brought up this asymmetry issue, explicitly said “the debate has been polarized to the extent that on one side you have [_official position of organized and powerful anti-abortion groups_] whereas on the other side you have [_extreme minority radical view not supported by any recognized abortion rights group_]”. In the real world, those are not in any way evenly matched “sides” who are in any way “polarizing” any kind of established public “debate”. This OP’s argument is absolutely about trying to fake a false equivalence between American support for radical extremist anti-abortion positions and American support for radical extremist pro-abortion positions. Without that false equivalence, there’s no grounds whatsoever for painting the US abortion-rights movement _as a whole_ with the broad brush of hypocrisy for not denouncing legal restrictions on abortion in Europe. Now, if what the OP or anybody else actually _meant_ to ask was, “Do American pro-abortion extremists think that European abortion restrictions violate women’s rights?”, fine by me. Knock yourself out. But if so, then you’ll actually have to go find some real-life American pro-abortion extremists who really _do_ oppose _all_ legal restrictions on abortion, and focus the discussion on what _they_ think. Not just rely on lazy broad-brush references to American abortion-rights supporters _in general_ without any qualification. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/25 "2013-10-17T11:34:18Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I would much prefer laws like **Bryan Ekers** claims they have in Canada – no laws about it, let women and their physicians figure it out. It’s not just a “claim” - that is the case. The Supreme Court struck down the criminal law on abortion back in 1988. The Mulroney government (Progressive Conservative) tried twice to pass a replacement law, but one attempt didn’t even pass the Commons. The second passed the Commons but was defeated on a tie vote in the Senate. Since then, there has been no federal law criminalising abortion, and provincial attempts to pass laws restricting abortion have been struck down on federalism grounds. Abortion is now treated as just one more medical procedure. It is covered by the public health care plans. See the wiki article: [Abortion in Canada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada). ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/26 "2013-10-17T11:48:05Z")
**Kimstu** , you are making things up and then getting mad about them without need. **Asympotically fat** made no claims of “evenly matched ‘sides’ who are in any way ‘polarizing’ any kind of established public ‘debate’.” Do these extreme positions exist? Is there a perception of more polarization in the US than elsewhere? A poster who writes that he or she is “shocked at how polarized it seems to an outsider” gives you a clue with the word “seems”. This is a very interesting and educational thread. We’ve already gotten to learn about abortion laws and perceptions in Europe. And also about European perceptions of perceptions on abortion in the US. I suggest you calm down allow us to continue to learn these things. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/27 "2013-10-17T11:51:04Z")
To the OP- yes, the countries that don’t allow women and doctors to make decisions about abortion are violating their rights. This is my belief: every person has the right to bodily autonomy – and that right trumps the rights of anyone or anything who is inside them. Every person (of sound mind, etc) has the right to expel anyone or anything that’s inside them if they want it out, no matter what. It doesn’t matter if it’s a parasite, a fetus, or a tiny violinist- if you want it out, you have the right to get it out. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/28 "2013-10-17T12:27:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To the OP- yes, the countries that don’t allow women and doctors to make decisions about abortion are violating their rights. > > This is my belief: every person has the right to bodily autonomy – and that right trumps the rights of anyone or anything who is inside them. Every person (of sound mind, etc) has the right to expel anyone or anything that’s inside them if they want it out, no matter what. It doesn’t matter if it’s a parasite, a fetus, or a tiny violinist- if you want it out, you have the right to get it out. Ideologically, I might agree (I’m not really sure yet, I remain a little unsure about how to weigh it against the suffering of a baby). But pragmatically, for this to be a law it would need to solve an existing problem. AFAIK, this is not a problem where I live. I have never heard of anyone wanting to terminate a late pregnancy for non-medical reasons. Most of the time you either want a baby or you don’t, you find out you’re pregnant when you miss a period and decide then. No article, not anyone I know, nothing indicates that extending the right of abortion indefinitely solves a problem beyond an ideological one. It’s something that actively interests me, so I think I’d come across it in reading if it were a problem. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/29 "2013-10-17T12:37:04Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Ideologically, I might agree (I’m not really sure yet, I remain a little unsure about how to weigh it against the suffering of a baby). But pragmatically, for this to be a law it would need to solve an existing problem. AFAIK, this is not a problem where I live. I have never heard of anyone wanting to terminate a late pregnancy for non-medical reasons. Most of the time you either want a baby or you don’t, you find out you’re pregnant when you miss a period and decide then. No article, not anyone I know, nothing indicates that extending the right of abortion indefinitely solves a problem beyond an ideological one. It’s something that actively interests me, so I think I’d come across it in reading if it were a problem. I think it is an existing problem- some women in many different countries are not able to get abortions when they want them. I agree that very, very few women get late-term abortions for non-medical reasons, but even they must be given the benefit of the doubt, and the basic dignity and respect that they get to be able to make decisions about their own bodies without legal interference. Whether or not I agree with every single abortion ever, it is _their_ decision, not the government’s, and not mine. And I’ll add that forcing someone to have an abortion (whether by government or by individuals) is just as wrong as preventing them from having one- it’s the decision of the individual and no one else. Further, this isn’t just an argument for legal abortion at all phases of pregnancy- this is an argument that _the personhood of the fetus is irrelevant_- it doesn’t matter who or what is inside you… if you want him/her/it out, you can get it out. This principle, obviously, applies to any other object or person (or part of a person!) that may be inside you- if you want him/her/it out, for any reason and at any time (even if you already invited them inside), they must get out! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/30 "2013-10-17T14:13:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Like I said, comparing an extreme anti-abortion-rights position that is _ **officially endorsed by many well-funded advocacy groups striving with considerable success to implement that position through legislation and intimidation** _ with an extreme pro-abortion-rights position that is _ **spouted by a few loonies on the internet** _… It’s not a few loonies on the internet. Here’s a couple of instances of calls for “post-birth abortions” from [a couple of philosophers in the Journal of Medical Ethics](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2012/03/after_birth_abortion_the_pro_choice_case_for_infanticide_.html) and [a lobbyist for Planned Parenthood testifying before a Florida legislative committee](http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-04-08/opinions/38362423_1_viable-babies-abortion-survivor-planned-parenthood). No one has claimed in this thread that this is the mainstream pro-choice position. But the claim that this is the extreme of that position appears to be well founded and not anything like “a few loonies on the internet”. [Of note: I believe these two philosophers are actually Europeans, and I don’t know if the premise that there is more polarization in the US than there is in Europe is valid.] ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/31 "2013-10-17T14:17:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Freedom of speech protections in the UK are, generally speaking, not as strong as they are in the US. That doesn’t mean that people in the UK don’t have freedom of speech. If I, personally, lived in the UK, the differences in those protections would probably bother me a little bit. But given that I live on the other side of the planet, I’m content to know that there is free speech in the UK, and I leave it up to the citizens of that country to work out just what that means to them. > > I feel pretty much the same way about abortion in the EU. Question I have is about the oft-repeated assertion that the US is to the right of Western Europe politically, and that the right wing of European politics is to the left of left-wing American positions. (This is often cited in the context of discussions of this board’s orientation.) The implication of statements such as yours is that this is not necessarily the case, and may vary by country and issue. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/32 "2013-10-17T14:17:38Z")
From the point of view of this Spanish woman, what’s weird is considering abortion as a matter of privacy. To me, it’s a matter of reproduction rights and of basic healthcare (like the Pill, a DUI, or periodic sonograms), and it is not a matter which affects only the woman involved (neither do the Pill or a DUI: choosing one or the other is often viewed as a shared decision). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/33 "2013-10-17T14:24:04Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Bear in mind that one reason it’s less of debate is that there are fewer abortions here (in the Netherlands, UK not so much). If you teach kids in schools that sex is ok if you use a condom, and parents take their daughters to get the pill when they are 13, you end up with very few people needing an abortion. I’m pro-choice, so don’t take this the wrong way, but I have a hard time believing there are “very few” abortions in the Netherlands. [This site](http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/mapworldabrate.html) puts the abortion rate at about 1/2 that of the US, but that is still a lot of abortions. If the US had that abortion rate, it would mean about 500,000/year. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/34 "2013-10-17T14:26:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > It’s not just a “claim” - that is the case. > > The Supreme Court struck down the criminal law on abortion back in 1988. > > The Mulroney government (Progressive Conservative) tried twice to pass a replacement law, but one attempt didn’t even pass the Commons. The second passed the Commons but was defeated on a tie vote in the Senate. > > Since then, there has been no federal law criminalising abortion, and provincial attempts to pass laws restricting abortion have been struck down on federalism grounds. Abortion is now treated as just one more medical procedure. It is covered by the public health care plans. > > See the wiki article: [Abortion in Canada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada). While it might be nice to claim that abortion freedom in Canada came forth from a wellspring of respect for women’s rights, it’s actually the result of bitter partisan politics directed against a weakened government that was on its way out. That’s okay, though - it’s a good result reached in an ugly way. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/35 "2013-10-17T14:43:29Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > There isn’t really any abortion debate in France, either. Of course, there are people, amongst conservative catholics, who are opposed to it, but we hardly ever hear of them. The law allowing abortion was voted in 1974 or somesuch, it was hotly debated at the time, but AFAIK never changed since and it never became again a “hot topic”. This is by and large as i’d say it was in the UK as well. Abortion is one of those things which is a “conscience issue” as it comes to politicians, where the party strategists don’t require everyone to vote one way, and by and large that’s probably because there isn’t a massive debate. Likewise with things like gun ownership, less so with gay marriage which was something of a big deal but probably just because it was something new. Though still, seemingly, less of a big deal than in the US. To the extent that abortion debates are ever in the news here it’s news from Ireland. It’d be interesting to hear from an Irish Doper on the matter, actually. I can certainly understand someone who was strongly in favour of/against any of those things focusing their attention in areas where there is a big push in both or either directions, or where the line is drawn too far in the direction they don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/36 "2013-10-17T14:50:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m pro-choice, so don’t take this the wrong way, but I have a hard time believing there are “very few” abortions in the Netherlands. [This site](http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/mapworldabrate.html) puts the abortion rate at about 1/2 that of the US, but that is still a lot of abortions. If the US had that abortion rate, it would mean about 500,000/year. That’s fair, you’re right that it’s not “very few”. What I mean is that it’s fewer than the US, so you get less noise about it. Plus, like I said, there doesn’t appear to be a huge _practical problem_ of women wanting abortions later than 24 weeks. There isn’t a complication, so there is no debate. It’s true, is it not, that in the US if you seek an abortion you might have to walk through a crowd of protesters, and you might even get shot by a nut job? That people are trying to take the right away from women? That there are huge amounts of teen pregnancy? All this means that in the US there is a reason for noise to be made about the issue. In the Netherlands, the status quo is ok. The imagined problems are not experienced by the population to the degree that they feel something should be done about it. There is noise made by doctors, because they have to report any abortions they do after 24 weeks, but not much by women who want abortions after that and can’t get them. So **iiandyiiii** has a problem with the rights of Dutch women, but Dutch women, for the majority, don’t. It seems a little like passing a seatbelt law in a land of three cars. Seatbelts are safer, but they’re unlikely to become a law if there isn’t a practical, social problem the law would solve. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/37 "2013-10-17T15:00:40Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > So **iiandyiiii** has a problem with the rights of Dutch women, but Dutch women, for the majority, don’t. It seems a little like passing a seatbelt law in a land of three cars. Seatbelts are safer, but they’re unlikely to become a law if there isn’t a practical, social problem the law would solve. Perhaps- I’m a pragmatist, so violating the rights of 11 women bothers me a lot less than violating the rights of 11,000, and it’s reasonable to fight the second a lot more than the first. But I think the point and the reasoning is a good one to explain why I support abortion rights. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/38 "2013-10-17T15:07:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Perhaps- I’m a pragmatist, so violating the rights of 11 women bothers me a lot less than violating the rights of 11,000, and it’s reasonable to fight the second a lot more than the first. **But I think the point and the reasoning is a good one to explain why I support abortion rights.** I agree with you. Though I’m still not sure I would support abortion at any time, because then I think of a baby and… Just ☹ Got nothing else. Just ☹ Ideologically, I would just want it to be between a woman and her doctor. Pragmatically, we don’t seem to be running into problems with the law as it is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/39 "2013-10-17T16:00:18Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > I agree with you. Though I’m still not sure I would support abortion at any time, because then I think of a baby and… Just ☹ Got nothing else. Just ☹ That’s OK- you don’t have to support it. You can oppose it, and say and think anything you want about it- that’s bad, it’s murder, it’s evil, etc. What matters is this- are you willing to push that women should be legally prevented from making the decision for themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416/40 "2013-10-17T17:59:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s not a few loonies on the internet. Here’s a couple of instances of calls for “post-birth abortions” from [a couple of philosophers in the Journal of Medical Ethics](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2012/03/after_birth_abortion_the_pro_choice_case_for_infanticide_.html) and [a lobbyist for Planned Parenthood testifying before a Florida legislative committee](http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-04-08/opinions/38362423_1_viable-babies-abortion-survivor-planned-parenthood). Your characterization of the Florida Planned Parenthood lobbyist’s position is ludicrously inaccurate. This testimony was in reference to procedures used **during a late-term abortion that already conformed to legal abortion restrictions** , not any kind of demand for completely elective late-term abortion **WITHOUT** any legal restrictions at all. Demanding that there be no legal restrictions at all on abortion is simply not a serious position in the US abortion-rights movement, despite the OP’s and others’ unsupported assertions to the contrary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-european-nations-violating-womens-rights/671416.md?page=3)