# Are female breast considered sexual in societies where women are always topless? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 20, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222 "2021-08-20T14:43:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/21 "2021-08-21T16:53:39Z")
Not sure if the European Tribes covered their breasts. I’ve not seen how the women folks dressed for the conquests Caesar had against Germanic or Gallic tribes. Not sure how the Cro Magnon woman dressed either. Most online pictures show Cro Magnon women covering their breasts while Neanderthal Women pictures show that their breasts are not covered. Like this one > **[NaturePlus: What's new at the Museum: Neanderthal woman in pieces](https://www.nhm.ac.uk/natureplus/blogs/whats-new/2014/02/11/neanderthal-woman-in-pieces.html)** > > NaturePlus The Venus Figurines discovered all over Europe seems to suggest that European guys were pretty much into breasts even back when breasts may have been exposed. > **[Venus figurine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurine)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > A Venus figurine is any Upper Palaeolithic statuette portraying a woman, usually carved in the round. Most have been unearthed in Europe, but others have been found as far away as Siberia, and distributed across much of Eurasia. > Most date from the Gravettian period (26,000–21,000 years ago). However, findings are not limited to this period; for example, the Venus of Hohle Fels dates back at least 35,000 years to the Aurignacian era, and the Ven... ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/22 "2021-08-23T14:27:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So far as I know, Morris is the only one to take that hypothesis seriously, and it has a number of faults. Foremost of which, of course, is that human breasts don’t particularly resemble buttocks. I remember watching a documentary with Morris where he presented as simple self-evident proof of his theory a shot of the cleft of a model’s buttocks side-by-side with her (very impressive) frontal cleavage. The weakness of his argument is that, as far as I know, proto-humanoids didn’t wear evening gowns on the Serengeti. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/23 "2021-08-23T14:37:03Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The Venus Figurines discovered all over Europe seems to suggest that European guys were pretty much into breasts even back when breasts may have been exposed. That’s only if you believe these are ancient man’s equivalent to pornography. No one know what they were for, but it’s highly likely they were some kind of devotional - eg, a fertility offering, or a goddess figure. Your link even suggests they may have been created by women. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/24 "2021-08-23T14:50:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So far as I know, Morris is the only one to take that hypothesis seriously, and it has a number of faults. Foremost of which, of course, is that human breasts don’t particularly resemble buttocks. There are many others who take it seriously, but Morris has been the most visible and vocal proponent. It’s difficult to account for the characteristic human breast other than as a sexual signal. It certainly isn’;t necessary for feeding babies – apes do quite well without prominent breasts. Most of the breast is fatty tissue, not useful for milk production, anyway. I suggest that a useful comparison is the gelada baboon. The female has a heart-shaped “necklace” of features surrounding the buttocks and sexual parts (as in most apes, the buttocks are not pronounced). The female has a parallel series of marks around the chest area. Like humans, gelada approach each other upright, even for mating. In both cases you have a sexual signal on the female’s chest that mimics the signal around the female’s rump.\* It’s hard for me to see in both cases the same principle at work. > [@](#): > > It can also be physically distinguished from a baboon by the bright patch of skin on its chest which gives rise to the “bleeding-heart” monikers. This patch is hourglass-shaped. On males, it is bright red and surrounded by white hair; on females, it is far less pronounced. However, when in estrus, the female’s patch will brighten, and a “necklace” of fluid-filled blisters forms on the patch. This is thought to be analogous to the swollen buttocks common to most baboons experiencing estrus. > **[Monkey Mania: The bleeding-heart monkey](https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-12-18/Monkey-mania-The-bleeding-heart-monkey-MwdyIrtEKQ/index.html)** > **[Don't Get Bit](https://ainawgsd.tumblr.com/post/163688741728/bleeding-heart-baboon-the-gelada-theropithecus)** > > Bleeding Heart Baboon > The gelada (Theropithecus gelada), sometimes called the bleeding-heart monkey, bleeding heart baboon or the gelada baboon, is a species of Old World monkey found only in the... \*Human buttocks are almost unique in the world. Females had to have characteristically wide hips to allow passage of the baby’s head through the birth canal. But we also need enlarged gluteus maximus muscles and the covering fat in order to keep us upright. we’re not knuckle-walkers like other apes, which don’t need the strong buttock muscles to stay upright. Elsewhere in the animal world, bipedal animals stay upright by the use of a counterbalancing tail (like theropod dinosaurs – T. Rex and the like. Allosaurs actually had a “corset” of cartilage to keep the tail stiff and sticking straight out.), or by shifting the legs to be under the center of gravity of the body, as with most birds. Humans are the only bipedal creatures I know of that keep upright not by balancing, but by using a powerful set of muscles to keep us from toppling over. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/25 "2021-08-23T15:14:50Z")
I’ve wondered if a comparison might be made with sexual attraction to lips. Most people have fully exposed lips and we generally don’t think of random lips as erotic. However, a person may be attracted to the lips of a specific person and think of them as being kissable or something like that. Generally, it’s someone who they are attracted to in the first place. Other exposed body parts, like ears and noses, aren’t really like that. So maybe in a society where the women are always topless, breasts become something which enhances attraction but doesn’t necessarily create it on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/26 "2021-08-23T15:22:28Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And no, i don’t get turned on when i see a guy’s lips or fingers or ears in a non-context. > > I would assume it’s similar with breasts. I think there is an element of something being taboo that makes it titillating (within reason). For example, it seems that porn (including gay porn), is [more popular in red states than blue states](https://www.salon.com/2016/05/21/the_red_state_gay_porn_habit_why_conservative_states_like_mississippi_and_north_carolina_lead_the_nation_in_same_sex_porn_consumption/). The more repressive the more they seem to dig it. Anecdotally, I find a woman in lingerie more appealing than a naked woman (although naked works too). Slightly covered but suggestive is more titillating than uncovered. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/27 "2021-08-23T15:44:19Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I’ve wondered if a comparison might be made with sexual attraction to lips. Most people have fully exposed lips and we generally don’t think of random lips as erotic. However, a person may be attracted to the lips of a specific person and think of them as being kissable or something like that. Generally, it’s someone who they are attracted to in the first place. Other exposed body parts, like ears and noses, aren’t really like that. So maybe in a society where the women are always topless, breasts become something which enhances attraction but doesn’t necessarily create it on its own. Morris addresses this, too. He claims that lips are a sexual signal, too, and a mimic, as well. Humans seem to be unique in having prominent lips among the primates. ---
**Author:** ![Ranch\_Dip](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranch_dip/32/5238_2.png) [@Ranch\_Dip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranch_Dip)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/28 "2021-08-23T17:48:05Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > which is why millionaires tend to prefer 20yo’s when it’s time to re-marry, Yeah, that’s why. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/29 "2021-08-23T18:08:47Z")
Desmond Morris has a vivid imagination, but his only formal credentials are in zoology. AFAIK, many of his claims have not become mainstream psychology or even science, so take them with a grain of sodium chloride. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/30 "2021-08-23T18:48:08Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Desmond Morris has a vivid imagination, but his only formal credentials are in zoology. AFAIK, many of his claims have not become mainstream psychology or even science, so take them with a grain of sodium chloride. Morris has a doctorate in Zoology, and specialized in animal behavior. It’s not like he’s a science journalist who happened to have some quirky ideas. He was publishing about animal behavior (most notably primate behavior) since 1952, well before he published **The Naked Ape** in 1967. So Morris is a well-trained specialist in exactly the sort of thing he wrote about, but switching the view from animal behavior to human behavior. Wikipedia has this to say about criticism of his work: > [@](#): > > Some of Morris’s theories have been criticized as untestable. For instance, geneticist Adam Rutherford writes that Morris commits “the scientific sin of the ‘just-so’ story – speculation that sounds appealing but cannot be tested or is devoid of evidence”.[[13]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Morris#cite_note-FOOTNOTERutherford201971-13) However, this is also a [criticism of adaptationism in evolutionary biology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spandrels_of_San_Marco_and_the_Panglossian_Paradigm), not just of Morris. Says The Guardian: > [@](#): > > Morris’s central claim, that much of our behaviour can be understood in the context of animal behaviour, has surely stood the test of time, even if some of the details haven’t. > **[The Naked Ape at 50: ‘Its central claim has surely stood the test of time ‘](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/24/the-naked-ape-at-50-desmond-morris-four-experts-assess-impact)** > > In October 1967, Desmond Morris published his landmark study of human behaviour and evolution. Here four experts assess what he got right – and wrong ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/31 "2021-08-23T22:54:17Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Says The Guardian: The last line of the article is interesting: > [@](#): > > But as a scientist, for choosing to overlook evidence right in front of his eyes, _The Naked Ape_ still deserves as little respect as he showed half the human species. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/32 "2021-08-24T02:46:03Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The last line of the article is interesting: That’s not the last line of the article. It’s not even the end of the piece. It’s one of several comments they solicited, and this one is from someone who profoundly disagrees with Morris. In fact, that “half the human race” part clearly shows that the commentator is taking issue with his treatment of women – and it’s about behavior, not about the structure and purpose of breasts. (this is confirmed by the title of her book – _Inferior: How Science Got Women Wrong and the New Research That’s Rewriting the Story_ The Guardian’s author evidently didn’t feel that way – he or she couldn’t have, in writing the line I quoted. (I can’t tell if “Robin” is male or fem,ale) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/33 "2021-08-24T11:20:27Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > The Guardian’s author evidently didn’t feel that way – he or she couldn’t have, in writing the line I quoted. (I can’t tell if “Robin” is male or fem,ale) If you mean Dunbar, he’s a he, AFAIK. Also, [not uneducated in the field](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number). But possibly biased. My own feelings echo those of the last author, Adam Rutherford. Especially since I’ve seen many a topless San and Xhosa woman and “protuberant, hemispherical breasts” are decidedly not the norm. BTW, to get back to the OP, as far as I know, breasts are still sexualized in Xhosa society, which is probably why they are covered up in married women - all the topless Xhosa and Zulu women I’ve encountered were unmarried. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/34 "2021-08-24T11:22:37Z")
Oh, certainly human breasts are a sexual signal. They’re just not mimicking buttocks. And if human face-lips are supposed to be mimicking vulval labia, then they do a really poor job of it, and an even poorer job if they’re supposed to be mimicking anything else. I’d assume that the more prominent lips in humans are connected to our language use. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/35 "2021-08-24T11:35:08Z")
Venus figurines could also look like this [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Gonnersdorfp1100214.jpg/592px-Gonnersdorfp1100214.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Gonnersdorfp1100214.jpg/592px-Gonnersdorfp1100214.jpg) or this [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Lat%C3%A9nium-dame-Monruz.jpg/322px-Lat%C3%A9nium-dame-Monruz.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Lat%C3%A9nium-dame-Monruz.jpg/322px-Lat%C3%A9nium-dame-Monruz.jpg) The idea that they had much to do with what “European guys were into” is not really well-substantiated. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/36 "2021-08-24T12:53:04Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > I remember watching a documentary with Morris where he presented as simple self-evident proof of his theory a shot of the cleft of a model’s buttocks side-by-side with her (very impressive) frontal cleavage. The weakness of his argument is that, as far as I know, proto-humanoids didn’t wear evening gowns on the Serengeti. Yeah, and it’s just needlessly complicated. It’s: “Some primates advertize their fertility via changes to their prominent, or colorful, buttocks. Human females don’t go into heat, and there are no changes to the buttocks. Nonetheless, the breasts, which would otherwise be non-sexual, are sexualized by growing to resemble the shape of the buttocks” Versus, to me, the far simpler: “Breasts are one of the clearest signs of sexual dimorphism in mammals, and are very prominent in humans due to our bipedal stance. As well as showing that a female is post pubescent\* they can also advertize other things like skin elasticity. Accordingly, they became sexually selected in our species, and are significantly larger than required for only feeding babies.” (OK, that’s a longer paragraph but it also explains more) \* Yes, or _currently_ pubescent. But of course in pre-modern times that was often an age where reproduction happened anyway. And there will be a correlation between years of puberty and average boob size. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/37 "2021-08-24T13:13:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Venus figurines could also look like this Those look more like artistic renderings of male genitalia. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/38 "2021-08-24T13:18:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Versus, to me, the far simpler: It may be “simpler”, but I find it far less convincing. Why should a bipedal stance lead to prominent breasts? I submit that sexual selection based on mimicry (as in the gelada) is far more convincing than skin elasticity. And our simian relatives don’t require enlarged breasts to demonstrate that puberty has been reached. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/39 "2021-08-24T14:18:37Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > I remember watching a documentary with Morris where he presented as simple self-evident proof of his theory a shot of the cleft of a model’s buttocks side-by-side with her (very impressive) frontal cleavage. The weakness of his argument is that, as far as I know, proto-humanoids didn’t wear evening gowns on the Serengeti. ISTR that with the in _The Language Instinct_ by Steven Pinker that he mocked evolutionary psychologists with a joke about the reason that men prefer women in miniskirts is that women with long skirts would get them caught in the bush and crush their kids. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222/40 "2021-08-24T14:24:21Z")
No, they’re generally acknowledged as female figures. Stone-age penis renderings are _much_ less abstracted… > **[How We Used to Get Our Rocks Off: Stone Age Dildos - CVLT Nation](https://cvltnation.com/how-cavepeople-got-their-rocks-off-neolithic-dildos/)** > > Maybe due to the religious myths that have been hammered into our collective consciousness for millennia, human beings, especially in the west, have a tendency to see ourselves as once innocent, and now depraved. Once upon a time, we did it as nature... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-female-breast-considered-sexual-in-societies-where-women-are-always-topless/949222.md?page=3)