# Are fetuses in the womb conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146 "2015-07-03T17:21:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/1 "2015-07-03T17:21:56Z")
I have been wondering if fetuses in the womb are conscious, and if so, at one point do they become conscious? I am more interested in a medical answer to this (if one is known) then a political debate. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/2 "2015-07-03T17:28:51Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I have been wondering if fetuses in the womb are conscious, and if so, at one point do they become conscious? I am more interested in a medical answer to this (if one is known) then a political debate. The medical answer is: we don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/3 "2015-07-03T18:15:50Z")
Since we don’t know what consciousness really is, I think this will be best suited to IMHO. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/4 "2015-07-03T18:31:42Z")
By my interpretation, consciousness is a learned behavior that develops well after birth. And to substantially varied degrees. ---
**Author:** ![scratcher\_cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@scratcher\_cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratcher_cat)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/5 "2015-07-03T18:59:25Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I have been wondering if fetuses in the womb are conscious, and if so, at one point do they become conscious? I am more interested in a medical answer to this (if one is known) then a political debate. If they are then they’re very mean to their mothers. Kicking them around from the inside like that. ☹ In all seriousness it appears that they have some aspects of consciousness, depending on your definition. [They can dream and recognize voices in utero.](https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199809/fetal-psychology) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/6 "2015-07-03T19:49:27Z")
What would be required to be able to actually answer the question? We’d need to be able to state what is observable that we accept as at least agreed correlates of consciousness, at least for a brain-based system. Some researchers are working on defining so-called “neural correlates of consciousness” with resonating (or oscillating) distant neuronal assemblies (top down representations to bottom incoming stimuli and bottom up stimuli to high level representations) as one leading contender but there is no consensus. So right now consciousness is accepted only by how much the behavior observed is similar to that which we engage in ourselves (if it looks and acts like I do and I am conscious then the observed system must be conscious as well … essentially a Turing test). Not a very satisfactory approach and one that demonstrates its limitations in deciding at what point in development human behavior is similar enough to when “I” personally recall being an “I” that a state of consciousness can be granted to the developing system. So yeah, we don’t know. Your even accepting that I am a conscious entity requires a certain leap of faith. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/7 "2015-07-03T23:00:02Z")
Can we draw any conclusions from fetal brain development? Consciousness requires a reasonably functional brain and nervous system, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/8 "2015-07-03T23:04:31Z")
How do we know that anyone has “consciousness”? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/9 "2015-07-04T01:12:09Z")
At 25 to 28 weeks gestation the fetus’s brainwave patterns are like those of a newborn’s. at 28 weeks brainwaves show a response to painful stimuli. Is that consciousness? Comatose people do not have the same brainwaves in response to pain as far as I’ve been able to find. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/10 "2015-07-04T01:28:23Z")
Is a newborn “conscious”? On what basis do you conclude yes or no? Various worms, molluscs, arthropods, etc. have pain receptors and show responses in their nervous systems to pain. Are they conscious? Is consciousness an either-or entity? Are there degrees of consciousness? Does conscious develop over time with newborns having very little and developing more full human consciousness over some period of time? If so is there a similar spectrum across species? Or are there alien forms of consciousness similar in degree but very different in form than ours? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/11 "2015-07-04T01:31:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Is a newborn “conscious”? On what basis do you conclude yes or no? Is there a distinction to be made between conscious and self-aware? One would think simply being awake is conscious. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/12 "2015-07-04T01:57:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Is a newborn “conscious”? On what basis do you conclude yes or no? I experience my own self-awareness as an internal monologue, which I could not have had before I learned at least some of the English language. If I had a consciousness before that time, it must have been of a very different type. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/13 "2015-07-04T03:28:16Z")
> [@scratcher\_cat](#): > > If they are then they’re very mean to their mothers. Kicking them around from the inside like that. ☹ > > In all seriousness it appears that they have some aspects of consciousness, depending on your definition. [They can dream and recognize voices in utero.](https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199809/fetal-psychology) Grin! And, yes, they definitely exhibit certain aspects of consciousness. Even very young babies lack some aspects of consciousness. For instance, very young babies can tear out their own hair, even while crying because it hurts – without realizing it is their own action that is causing the pain. They don’t have a fully-developed concept of “self.” Abstract thinking – such as the ability to recognize a model of a room as having a meaningful symbolic relationship to the real room – seems to pop up about age two-and-a-half. That’s the first step of “sapient” consciousness. And a hell of a lot of people grow to be full adults but still sleep-walk through life, unconscious of a huge part of their environment. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/14 "2015-07-04T10:23:35Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > I experience my own self-awareness as an internal monologue, which I could not have had before I learned at least some of the English language. If I had a consciousness before that time, it must have been of a very different type. Like a voice in your head? I experience it more like a relational database thing. Or more like actions and movement of pieces around, like planning errands. ---
**Author:** ![Hokkaido\_Brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d26b3c/32.png) [@Hokkaido\_Brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hokkaido_Brit)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/15 "2015-07-05T05:29:07Z")
Yes, to some degree, I think. My babies would definitely as everyone knows, wake and sleep. And when they were awake and shoving me, I could shove them back and they’d react. You could play with a foot, poking it, and having it poke back, for minutes at a time. So they were certainly aware of and reacting to a physical stimulus. They also would react to their Dad’s voice. I was hospitalized for a long time with my second son (Placenta Previa) and there were a couple of occasions when they needed to do long ultrasound scans looking not at the baby but the placenta in preparation for the surgery. The baby was in the way and they would shock him with a loud pulse of noise to make him move. It was AWFUL. He’d shoot across my belly and shake and twist and convulse for minutes afterwards. It made me want to punch the doctors, who I must say were always very apologetic about doing it. So again, not sure about consciousness as such but he certainly reacted at 30 weeks in a way that I’d expect a born baby to. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/16 "2015-07-06T12:04:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > How do we know that anyone has “consciousness”? I’ve given my answer to that before: _Cogito ergo sum_. If an entity has a concept of “I” or self, it must be conscious. The idea of consciousness being an illusion is self-contradictory, as what entity is it deluding? Now, if you mean how we know that other people are conscious, well, we put them in situations where they can prove that concept of self. Unfortunately, self-awareness is a sufficient but possibly not necessary condition for consciousness. I’ve seen arguments that animals that can’t pass the mirror test (recognizing that the animal in the mirror is them) are still definitely conscious. As for the OP’s question: we may not be able to determine when a fetus or baby becomes conscious, but we can at least set a lower bar–that when the fetus actually has brain activity. Thanks to the Master, we know that’s [around 25 weeks in](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2817/when-does-human-life-begin). Without brain activity, the fetus cannot be conscious. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/17 "2015-07-06T14:35:59Z")
> [@Hokkaido\_Brit](#): > > Yes, to some degree, I think. My babies would definitely as everyone knows, wake and sleep. And when they were awake and shoving me, I could shove them back and they’d react. You could play with a foot, poking it, and having it poke back, for minutes at a time. So they were certainly aware of and reacting to a physical stimulus. They also would react to their Dad’s voice. > > I was hospitalized for a long time with my second son (Placenta Previa) and there were a couple of occasions when they needed to do long ultrasound scans looking not at the baby but the placenta in preparation for the surgery. The baby was in the way and they would shock him with a loud pulse of noise to make him move. It was AWFUL. He’d shoot across my belly and shake and twist and convulse for minutes afterwards. It made me want to punch the doctors, who I must say were always very apologetic about doing it. So again, not sure about consciousness as such but he certainly reacted at 30 weeks in a way that I’d expect a born baby to. This is pretty much what I was going to post - a late term baby is, as far as I could tell, as conscious as a newborn is. Responds to stimulus, moves around, goes through periods of activity and inactivity. Responded to my husband’s voice. Hiccuped. Practiced breathing, which is hella weird. Now, how conscious is a newborn, really? As conscious as, like, a lobster? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/18 "2015-07-06T14:47:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > … > Even very young babies lack some aspects of consciousness. For instance, very young babies can tear out their own hair, even while crying because it hurts – without realizing it is their own action that is causing the pain. They don’t have a fully-developed concept of “self.” > > … I don’t think this is a great example of anything except that they can’t make each and every relationship. Adults do the same thing in different ways. A alcoholic may cry of why their life and health is going to shit thinking of how drinking is their only source of relief. Grasping and pulling hair, the feeling in the hands, may be satisfying to some degree, and the drinking is in the above. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/19 "2015-07-07T20:06:31Z")
According to the definition of the word: > [@](#): > > conscious > adjective > **Neurology** Awake, alert. See Conservatorship, Unconscious noun > **Psychiatry** The content of mind or mental functioning of which one is aware. > McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine. © 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc. I would say that neurologically speaking a fetus could be considered conscious, psychiatrically speaking perhaps not so much. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146/20 "2015-07-08T00:46:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > How do we know that anyone has “consciousness”? What do you mean, “know”? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fetuses-in-the-womb-conscious/724146.md?page=2)