Are foreign restaurants with English menus guaranteed tourist traps?

I’m reminded of the time a couple of friends and I were at Toronto and decided to go to Chinatown for dinner. We wandered around for a bit and finally picked a place more or less at random. After we were seated it occurred to us that we were practically the only non-Chinese in the place. I can’t remember what the menu looked like (this was in the mid-70s) but the waiter spoke enough English to help us order. We basically said “what do you recommend?” and followed his suggestions.

Best Chinese food I’d ever had to that point.

I did something similar when I was in London and went into an Indian restaurant.

Yes, and you can die in a car accident even if you wore a seatbelt and activated the airbags, and you can survive a crash without doing either of those things.

It’s a percentage game. I have been to many tourist trap restaurants, and never have gotten a decent meal in one. “Could’ve done better myself, even though I’ve never prepared this dish.” I have gotten lousy food in other places as well, but not nearly as often.

One of the most common “Pro Tips” for travellers is to seek out the restaurants that the locals go to, in other words the opposite of tourist traps. It works, too.

Barcelona tip: try the hot chocolate and churros (generally served together. The hot chocolate is about midway between being a beverage and being warm pudding.

I recommend Midtown around 3rd Ave for some good local Italian places.

I concur. Although depending on where you’re at, the local place might be a cheap dump because that’s all the local economy can support. In that case, you’ll not get “quality” food as much as “good value for the price” food. Still very much worthwhile in mine opinion, but be aware.

It is, and does.

We had a bit of a NYC adventure when we were there last; we saw a Yankees game at the old stadium (it’s been a few years), and then hopped on the subway to go find Arthur Avenue.

Long story short, we got off at the wrong stop (182/183 instead of Fordham Rd) and decided to walk. I feel like we definitely got a more interesting Bronx experience that way; we ended up walking a mile or two, but we finally got there.

At one point, a couple of cops were like “Do you need help? You don’t look like you’re from around here.”

When I visited Japan, most of the places we went to had the option of an English menu. Were some of them tourist traps? Possibly, but I don’t think all of them were. Certainly they didn’t seem to be catering to westerners exclusively, because most of the patrons were Japanese (as far as I could tell).

Same thing in Israel - only the really cheap places don’t have English menus (or Hebrew and English on the same menu).

The problem with that in Germany is it can be hard to find a restaurant that serves German food. That’s what you eat at home. I was poor and it was a long time ago but I did manage to eat some damn good Italian and Greek food in Germany. It was easier to find food from other cultures than it was to find German food.

And usually they’re not the cheapest places you’ll find, quite the opposite, Italian, Greek, Chinese, Turkish or whatever ethnic restaurants in Germany are generally much cheaper.

As a pro traveler my general rule of thumb was/is if I’m the only non-[whatever ethnicity] in the joint it’ll be a great meal. Even if the surroundings are real modest.

It’s purely that Venice has banned traditional wood-fired ovens because they don’t want to burn the city down, so you can’t get the traditional wood-fired flavour typical of Neapolitan pizzas. I’m sure you can still get decent pizza in some parts of Venice, but if you’re on the hunt for ‘best ever Italian pizza’, that factor probably counts Venice out.

Don’t they have a smartphone version? Both the the Amsterdam and Paris city passes had smartphone app links.

Not in South Africa. Here all restaurants have English menus.

Thanks for picking up on that. This is exactly correct — the pizza ovens in Venice are simply different, which means Venetian pizzamakers can’t cook the same kind of pizza as elsewhere in Italy.

I’ll come back to that in a moment, but turning to the Americans in the thread, here’s an analogy that might provide some context and help them understand the distinction.

A Chicago-style hot dog doesn’t have ketchup on it. Full stop. This doesn’t mean anything about your own personal preference for or against ketchup on a hot dog. Your preference, indeed, may rise to the level of insistence, that, when you get a hot dog, ketchup must be included or excluded. It’s perfectly fine for one or the other to be your preference. But what’s not fine is that a Chicago-style hot dog specifically cannot have ketchup on it.

To be very clear: You can go to Chicago, and you can get a hot dog, and you can put ketchup on it. You can then call it delicious. What you cannot do is call it a Chicago-style hot dog, because that kind of hot dog has a specific definition, entirely separate from one’s own personal taste.

Regarding pizza, the American concept is pretty flexible and wide ranging. Thin crust, thick crust, stuffed crust, deep dish, and on and on: if you have a bready base, covered in toppings, it’s pizza. You could chop up some hot dogs, mix them in ketchup, spread that on the bottom half of a hamburger bun, sprinkle cheddar cheese on it, and bake it in the oven, and most Americans, I think, would be comfortable saying that resides within the large circle of the “pizza” set. It might be close to the edge, but it’s inside the circle. And, in fact, depending on certain conditions, it might actually be quite delicious. I can imagine the making of these as a hands-on activity for a kids’ birthday party, and I bet the partygoers would be happy to eat them, without quibbling over terminology.

But for the purpose of understanding pizza in Italy, these ketchup buns neither qualify nor compare. Pizza means something more specific to Italians than it does to Americans. There are actual rules and definitions. The much-shared factoid about pineapple pizza being “illegal” or “outlawed” in Italy is definitely false, but there is a small nugget of truth underneath it, insofar as the Italian understanding of pizza is narrower than the American version.

The point is, in Venice, the limitation on the ovens means they can’t make pizza the way Italians expect it to be made. To whatever extent they may be attempting to replicate or simulate the kind of pizza you’d find elsewhere in Italy, the lower-temperature ovens mean they simply can’t achieve the same level of quality. And to whatever extent they’re therefore changing the recipe and making something else that’s more appropriate for their ovens, it’s not the same product.

That doesn’t mean it can’t be delicious. As LHoD noted, he has fond memories of a pizza “full of fresh herbs.” I wasn’t there to taste it, but I can definitely see how an herb-laden flatbread with a few toppings would be quite enjoyable. It would, however, necessarily, be a compromise to the reality of the lower-powered oven. If you don’t have the ability to blast the crust and develop the flavor in the Italian style, then you need to bring flavor by other means. And when you do that, you’re diverging from the Italian pizza tradition. It can, indeed, be delicious, if made well. But at a certain point, you’re departing from the Italian style. I’ve had a lot of pizza in Italy, and being loaded with herbs is not something I’ve really seen anywhere. Some torn basil, of course, but not more than that. Sure, it could be good. But it’s not the norm, at least in my experience.

You are free to reject this perspective. You can choose to shrug at the distinction. If you want to order focaccia with embedded olives and a dusting of Parmigiano Reggiano and believe you’re eating pizza because it has bread and toppings and cheese, you’re free to do so, just as you’re free to go to Chicago and put ketchup on your hot dog. If you want to say that you personally like a Papa John’s pizza better than anything made by the greatest pizzaiolo in Naples, other people might raise their eyebrow at you, but your palate is your palate.

But if you want to eat pizza made the Italian way, you shouldn’t order it in Venice. There are much, much better options. That’s all I’m saying.

Bravo!

When we stayed in an AirBnB two blocks from the Colosseum in Rome the owners had supplied a list of restaurants they recommended and those to avoid. Just down the street were two places that looked mostly the same from the outside. The one they recommended was wonderful, and full of folks speaking Italian. The one across from it was obviously full of tourists. I would have been hard pressed to make that decision without local knowledge.

Lol. For passover, every year, we eat “mazto pizza” for supper one night. It’s literally half sheets of matzo on a baking sheet, with some canned tomato sauce, and a healthy sprinkling of shredded low-moisture, full-fat mozzarella, purchased in a sack in the dairy section of the supermarket. (Not the “cheese” section.) I look forward to it every year. And yes, it is within the large circle of American “pizza”, if near the edge.

I love it. But I’d be disappointed if a pizza place served it to me.

No idea. It was very easy to buy the paper pass, and i had no issues with it.

Just swap out the mozzarella for Provel and you’ve got a decent approximation of St. Louis-style pizza.

Which is an unholy abomination.