# Are fossil skeletons the real thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 15, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803 "2006-06-15T13:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/21 "2006-06-15T21:39:51Z")
There are more than 11 specimens of T.rex known, however the number of specimens that are complete enough to facilitate the reconstruction and mounting of a skeleton is of course lower. Here is a list of known T.rex specimens. (Might be out of date somewhat) [T.rex specimens](http://www3.sympatico.ca/dinoguy/tyranno_tab.html) ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/22 "2006-06-15T22:14:25Z")
Blimey! [9,000,000 paleontological specimens](http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/collections/departmental-collections/palaeontology-collections/index.html) in storage at the NHM in London. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/23 "2006-06-15T22:19:10Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Blimey! [9,000,000 paleontological specimens](http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/collections/departmental-collections/palaeontology-collections/index.html) in storage at the NHM in London. You have to remember that most of those are going to be clams and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/24 "2006-06-15T22:39:33Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You have to remember that most of those are going to be clams and the like. Really? I was kinda imagining the crate scene at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/25 "2006-06-15T22:40:02Z")
From the Chicago Field Museum’s website regarding Sue: > [@](#): > > On May 17, 2000 The Field Museum unveiled Sue, the largest, most complete, and best preserved T. rex fossil yet discovered. > > The skeleton on display is the real thing. Not a plastic model or a plaster cast. Not a patchwork or composite of bones from different specimens. It does say (as was previously noted in the thread) that Sue’s “head” on the skeleton is a cast due to deformation and weight issues and her real skull is on display upstairs in a glass case. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/26 "2006-06-15T23:22:37Z")
> [@vetbridge](#): > > Here are the steps taken in making a reconstructed skeleton of a T-Rex, from the Carnegie Museum in Pittsburgh: > [http://www.carnegiemnh.org/ditw/paleolab/samson.htm](http://www.carnegiemnh.org/ditw/paleolab/samson.htm) [Here](http://www.carnegiemnh.org/ditw/paleolab/rex1.htm) it seems that “Samson” is a replica, but most of the other dinos there are the real deal. Damn, I haven’t been down there in _years_. I should go some time. IIRC, it’s considered one of, if not THE, dino capitals of the world. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/27 "2006-06-16T13:43:24Z")
Hey **Guin**. I’ve been taking my kids once or twice a year since they were infants. Sadly, my daughter (15 years old) has friends in school who have never been there! We are about a 50 minute drive away. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/28 "2006-06-16T14:09:12Z")
> [@NoCoolUserName](#): > > I remember reading (but don’t remember where) that there have been only 11 T-Rex skeletons found. That means they HAVE to put up “fakes” everywhere else, 'cause EVERYBODY wants to see a T-Rex, darn it! > > If somebody can find a cite regarding this, I’d appreciate it. It might convince me that my brain has not yet become fossilized. 🙂 Like others have said, there are more _incomplete_ ones than that. I just wanted to throw out that I read recently (can’t remember where) is that one reason many paleontologists now believe T. Rex was a scavenger is precisely because of the relative _abundance_ of T. Rex fossils they find - more than you’d expect for a true predator of that size. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/29 "2006-06-16T14:11:35Z")
> [@Jombi](#): > > Point taken. But museums know that the average person does focus on the few huge gaudy eye-catching specimens. And if they aren’t the real thing, they shouldn’t let people think they are. My experience is as others have noted. Everything is quite clearly labeled whether it’s the real thing, or an artifical copy. There’s no intent to deceive museum patrons. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/30 "2006-06-16T15:22:22Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > From the Chicago Field Museum’s website regarding Sue:It does say (as was previously noted in the thread) that Sue’s “head” on the skeleton is a cast due to deformation and weight issues and her real skull is on display upstairs in a glass case. A few years ago, a museum about an hour away from me said Sue would be on display there. “Come See Sue” the signs told us. I was very excited, and Hubby and I drove to the city to see her. It wasn’t until after we had paid our admission and made our way through the museum to the actual exhibit that we were informed that\* this\* Sue was a replica. Needless to say, I was pissed, and felt I was the victim of false advertising. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/31 "2006-06-16T17:42:29Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Like others have said, there are more _incomplete_ ones than that. I just wanted to throw out that I read recently (can’t remember where) is that one reason many paleontologists now believe T. Rex was a scavenger is precisely because of the relative _abundance_ of T. Rex fossils they find - more than you’d expect for a true predator of that size. I would take such claims with a grain or two of salt. The link that **Cuckoorex** provided shows a mere 58 or so specimens as the sum of all known _T. rex_ fossils. That’s less than 60 individuals for a species whose range extended across most of North America, and lasted at least 5 million years. Biases in the fossil record tend to skew abundance ratios a bit. _Allosaurus_ was a top predator of the Jurassic, but we have oodles (comparitively speaking) of those (as **CalMeachem** mentioned). ---
**Author:** ![Jombi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f19dbf/32.png) [@Jombi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jombi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/32 "2006-06-16T19:20:15Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > A few years ago, a museum about an hour away from me said Sue would be on display there. “Come See Sue” the signs told us. I was very excited, and Hubby and I drove to the city to see her. > > It wasn’t until after we had paid our admission and made our way through the museum to the actual exhibit that we were informed that\* this\* Sue was a replica. Needless to say, I was pissed, and felt I was the victim of false advertising. Exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. And I never claimed that the real/fake status is never disclosed. In fact, I noted in the early posts that the museums probably do tell people but they don’t shout it as loudly as they yell “Come See Sue!” or Annie, or Ricky or whatever. I suppose there could be an argument that people ought to pay attention more instead of just looking at the big dinosaur for a second and moving on. But I suspect that museum was happy to have Lissa and her hubby visit on the \*assumption \* that they were goiong to see the real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/33 "2006-06-16T20:31:15Z")
> [@Jombi](#): > > And I never claimed that the real/fake status is never disclosed. In fact, I noted in the early posts that the museums probably do tell people but they don’t shout it as loudly as they yell “Come See Sue!” or Annie, or Ricky or whatever. Right now, in the museum in which I work, we have a temporary exhibit of antique manuscripts and books, some dating back to the 1100s. I can’t imagine how dissapointed visitors would be if they came in to see it, drawn by our advertising, and were presented with a case full of Xeroxes. No amount of labling would make up for that. In the museum in which I work, we have a small number of replicas, but beside each is a sign informing visitors of that fact. Whenever we have a piece on display which has had to have parts replaced, we always make the new parts a slightly different shade/style so that it’s obvious that the part is not original to the item. ---
**Author:** ![Jombi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f19dbf/32.png) [@Jombi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jombi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/34 "2006-06-16T20:39:57Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Right now, in the museum in which I work, we have a temporary exhibit of antique manuscripts and books, some dating back to the 1100s. I can’t imagine how dissapointed visitors would be if they came in to see it, drawn by our advertising, and were presented with a case full of Xeroxes. No amount of labling would make up for that. > > In the museum in which I work, we have a small number of replicas, but beside each is a sign informing visitors of that fact. Whenever we have a piece on display which has had to have parts replaced, we always make the new parts a slightly different shade/style so that it’s obvious that the part is not original to the item. Wow, even more interesting that you work in a museum and still were misled by the Sue advertising. Love the analogy about the Xeroxes, too. If a museum advertised Gutenberg bibles and actually had exact copies on display because the real thing had to be reserved for researchers, that would feel like a ripoff. (Irrelevant anecdote: Once found myself looking at a Gutenberg bible with Elvis Costello. Interesting moment.) By the way, I’ve seen the original Sue in Chicago and recall that it was the real deal and they made clear that the head was fake, the original in a different display. So kudos to them, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/35 "2006-06-16T20:41:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I would take such claims with a grain or two of salt. The link that Cuckoorex provided shows a mere 58 or so specimens as the sum of all known T. rex fossils. That’s less than 60 individuals for a species whose range extended across most of North America, and lasted at least 5 million years. Half of those specimens are Montana, and all but four (two in New Mexico, and one each in Texas and Colorado) are from states or provinces bordering Montana. And, of course, the actual range doesn’t exactly fill all of those states. So I’m not sure I’d say the range extended “across most of North America”. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/36 "2006-06-16T20:43:00Z")
Good point about the ancient books, but consider also that there is value in even a PDF document of the information in those books as well. That’s kind of where I come from with the dinosaur skeletons; am I looking to be wowed by the “ancient” factor, or am I more interested in what I can learn from modern methods of interpreting and viewing them? There’s not a hard and fast rule as far as I’m concerned; when it comes to something like an Egyptian mummy, I definitely want to see the real thing, not a replica. Same thing with the famous “dinosaur mummies” that have been found. But I still am not angry or disappointed when I go to the Mall of America’s new dinosaur exhibit and find out that it is a replica of a T.rex skeleton and not the real thing. Another benefit of using cast replicas; you can let people get a lot closer to the exhibit without worrying about a priceless specimen getting damaged. We recently had a cast of “Stan” the T.rex at a local nature center, and kids could walk right up underneath the skeleton which was mounted in a dynamic pose, and they could really get a sense for how massive the creature was. Sure, some people were less impressed because it wasn’t the real fossil on display, but what is better; an excellent replica or no skeleton at all? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/37 "2006-06-16T21:27:58Z")
> [@Darwin's Finch](#): > > I would take such claims with a grain or two of salt. Salted. I found a sort-of cite saying that they’re starting to find more and more of them: [http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2000/D/200003132.html](http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2000/D/200003132.html) but it’s from Jack Horner, who’s obviously wanting _T Rex_ to be a scavenger really, really hard. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/38 "2006-06-16T21:37:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Half of those specimens are Montana, and all but four (two in New Mexico, and one each in Texas and Colorado) are from states or provinces bordering Montana. And, of course, the actual range doesn’t exactly fill all of those states. So I’m not sure I’d say the range extended “across most of North America”. While the geographic hyperbole may be in error, the argument is not – unless one is willing to claim that _T. rex_ in Montana was a scavenger (because of the “numerous” specimens found therein), while the New Mexico variety was not (two specimens by no means being “too many” for a top predator). The larger point being, of course, that you can’t make any hard claims about distributions and frequencies of terrestrial vertebrates based on fossil evidence alone. The number of specimens in itself can tell us nothing about the feeding habits _T. rex_. As for the whole replica thing, I have no problem with a mounted skeleton being a replica. There are fewer available fossils (and fewer complete skeletons) than there are museums which wish to showcase these beasts. If one is serious about studying particular specimens, then travel to remote locations is probably not a problem; for the average “take the kids to see dinosaurs” museum go-er, such travel is not as practical. So, the most practical solution is to keep the real thing in the back, and ship casts out to the museums who want them (with the host museum being the most likely to actually mount the real thing, when it happens). > [@bup](#): > > but it’s from Jack Horner, who’s obviously wanting T Rex to be a scavenger really, really hard. Yeah. And despite Horner’s wishes, there really isn’t a lot of serious discussion on the topic in the journals. There _is_ evidence for predation, however, in the form of healed scars on various prey-type critters that match up with tyrannosaurus teeth, indicating they were attacked while they were still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/39 "2006-06-17T01:59:12Z")
> [@Jombi](#): > > Wow, even more interesting that you work in a museum and still were misled by the Sue advertising. Honest to God, there was no mention in the ads that it was a replica. It said it was a travelling exhibit of Sue the Dinosaur, coming for a short time only to select locations. NOne of my co-workers knew, either. My curator had been planning to take his kids, but didn’t go after I told him it was a cast. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803/40 "2006-06-17T16:06:44Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Honest to God, there was no mention in the ads that it was a replica. It said it was a travelling exhibit of Sue the Dinosaur, coming for a short time only to select locations. NOne of my co-workers knew, either. My curator had been planning to take his kids, but didn’t go after I told him it was a cast. If his kids are anything like my nephews or their classmates (or me when I was a kid), it is a freaking CRIME in my opinion to keep them from seeing the Sue replica just because it’s not the “real thing”; the kids that I have known, for the most part, express only a little bit of disappointment at most to find out that a skeleton is a cast. The experience of seeing the replica is still very much exciting and interesting and educational for them. Hopefully I’m reading the wrong idea from your statement, but it almost comes across as the curator boycotting the replica Sue out of anger or resentment. I also am amazed that a curator would not be aware that most “traveling exhibits” of dinosaur skeletons are replicas. I’ve known that replicas are widely used since I was a kid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fossil-skeletons-the-real-thing/360803.md?page=3)