# Are fundamentalists secretly stealing "Origin of Species" from public libraries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 13, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361 "2009-03-13T19:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/21 "2009-03-14T03:16:52Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > A question to librarians: Would such tactics (towards any book) really result in less presence of the respective work, or rather in a lower mean age and better condition of library copies? It probably depends on the importance of the work and the wealth of the library. My library, which does not have a lot of money, doesn’t work too hard to replace Sylvia Browne. There’s always some new title in the astrology or Wiccan areas to buy instead. Darwin’s work, as an important book, would be replaced more, but then I’ve never heard of it being stolen. School librarians will tell you that sex ed books constantly disappear, and you just keep replacing them. I was quite bummed when a very good history book by a favorite author of mine disappeared within a month of its acquisition. It was never replaced. The money probably wasn’t there or something. On the whole, for my library to buy any title, it has to be either new or important. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/22 "2009-03-14T03:33:21Z")
Likewise, Dungeons & Dragons rulebooks were known to disappear from libraries fairly often in the 80s. Whether it was D&D players stealing them for their private collection or fundies stealing them to keep them out of the hands of teenagers, I don’t know. I just know that those few card catalog cards mocked me on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/23 "2009-03-14T05:27:58Z")
I don’t doubt in some locations this is an issue, but libraries that have high theft rate certainly know this and simply move the book to a “closed shelf.” This means you have to ask for the book. Depending on the book the library may allow you to check it out or they may ask for your driver’s license and require you only view it in the library. Back years and decades ago when they would limit you to five items (now my library is 30) if I wanted to place a “hold” on a book, I would simply misfile it in an little used section of the library. It never failed. Most libraries won’t do a search for misfiled books more than one or two times a year so it’s unlikely someone will find the misfiled book. Then when I returned my book and go under my five limit, I’d simply know where I misfiled the book, get it, then check it out. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/24 "2009-03-14T08:05:13Z")
I can’t find any cites for an organized (or disorganized) effort to rid libraries of “The Origin Of Species” either, but last month an entire billboard commemorating Darwin on his 200th birthday was [stolen](http://www.ffrf.org/news/2009/WhitehallDarwin_saga.php) from a suburb of Columbus, Ohio. The Whitehall City Council refused to adopt a proclamation honoring Darwin, so the National Freedom From Religion Foundation, based in Madison, Wis., placed the “Praise Darwin: Evolve Beyond Belief” billboard on East Main and Fountain Lane, Columbus, on Feb. 11. The thieves would have required 32’ ladders or a crane (or a helicopter?) to accomplish this, so somebody has a pretty serious interest in ridding the world of Darwin-related materials. But I wouldn’t worry too much. Like the co-president of the foundation said: “It’s not that easy to stop evolution.” ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/25 "2009-03-14T18:04:47Z")
I don’t know about books being stolen from libraries to prevent the corruption of innocent youth, but around here, the most often-shoplifted books in bookstores are the works of Paul Auster and Charles Bukowski. They’re both much beloved by hipsters, who are apparently a light-fingered bunch. In bookstores in hipster 'hoods, you’ll see a sign where you’d expect to find books by Auster or Bukowski directing customers to ask at the counter for those books. I’ve also heard (from many, many lawyers) that books are often stolen from the libraries of law schools, not because someone wants them, but to keep anyone else from being able to use those books. The thief thus enhances his or her class ranking, or at least hopes to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolas\_Bourbaki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@Nicolas\_Bourbaki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nicolas_Bourbaki)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/26 "2009-03-15T01:53:03Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Although I wouldn’t put it past scattered individuals to do this sort of thing, I just want to note that this sort of behavior has been reported about two other groups in the past – Mormons have been accused of removing anti-Mormon volumes, and Scientologists have been accused of making off with anti-Scientologist literature. I seriously doubt it’s true in the first case. I wouldn’t put it past the Scienos to try and run off with copies of “The Bare-Faced Messiah” or “A Piece of Blue Sky” – there are so few anti-Scieno pieces that get successfully published that it would be worthwhile, and they have a history of organized action. But the truth is that I’ve seen plenty of literature critical of them in the libraries. So I doubt if they really did try and swipe all their detractors. > > Bottom line, this is a familiar story, and it’s not likely o be true. At my community college, there was a ‘stress test’ booth outside the cafeteria pretty much all the time, and I noticed a couple of books in the catalog that weren’t on the shelves. Even the issue of _Rolling Stone_ with the big Scieno expose had eight pages ripped out of the middle just days after it came in. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/27 "2009-03-15T03:06:35Z")
I agree iwth Cal – it’s mostly scattered cranks, or small groups like followers of some local preacher. Around here, they seem to go after books with ‘sexual’ content more than scientific ones like Darwin. And since most of Darwin’s works, including 5 editions of this one, are freely available online at [Project Gutenberg](http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/d#a485), the whole ‘steal it from the library so impressionable people won’t be contaminated by this book’ may be dying out a bit. P.S. As of this winter, the number of books available online for free in [Project Gutenberg](http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/d#a485) makes it bigger than the average USA library. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/28 "2009-03-15T17:10:46Z")
[U.S. libraries checking out book theft / 'Most-stolen' list will help curb crime](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/05/15/MN191536.DTL) According to this news story, books about the occult, and gay and lesbian books are at the top. I suppose they fear a little embarrassment or letting people know private information about them. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/29 "2009-03-15T19:34:08Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Back years and decades ago when they would limit you to five items (now my library is 30) if I wanted to place a “hold” on a book, I would simply misfile it in an little used section of the library. It never failed. Most libraries won’t do a search for misfiled books more than one or two times a year so it’s unlikely someone will find the misfiled book. Then when I returned my book and go under my five limit, I’d simply know where I misfiled the book, get it, then check it out. You do know that all librians have a special place in hell for people who do that? We hate that with a passion, and with limited personell because of funding it’s simply impossible to search the shelves for misfiled books more often. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/30 "2009-03-16T13:38:43Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > You do know that all librians have a special place in hell for people who do that? We hate that with a passion, and with limited personell because of funding it’s simply impossible to search the shelves for misfiled books more often. I actually had a deadbeat book-hiding patron come to me and ASK WHERE TO HIDE THEM SO THE SHELVERS DON’T FIND THEM. I tore him a new one in righteous fury. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/31 "2009-03-16T13:49:20Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > A question to librarians: Would such tactics (towards any book) really result in less presence of the respective work, or rather in a lower mean age and better condition of library copies? I would say it would give more credibility to it if it were stolen regularly, if taken by, as you call them, fundamentalist, it would seem to be a act that would be anti-God, but very possibly pro-religion, and as such it would appear they would be acting in favor of the spirit of anti-Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/32 "2009-03-16T14:25:09Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I don’t know about books being stolen from libraries to prevent the corruption of innocent youth, but around here, the most often-shoplifted books in bookstores are the works of Paul Auster and Charles Bukowski. They’re both much beloved by hipsters, who are apparently a light-fingered bunch. In bookstores in hipster 'hoods, you’ll see a sign where you’d expect to find books by Auster or Bukowski directing customers to ask at the counter for those books. > > I’ve also heard (from many, many lawyers) that books are often stolen from the libraries of law schools, not because someone wants them, but to keep anyone else from being able to use those books. The thief thus enhances his or her class ranking, or at least hopes to do so. I’m a lawyer. I never encountered this going through law school. The more popular books would be kept on a closed shelf that you had to ask for, sure, and would be on one-day loan - but that was because they were **popular** , not because they were regularly stolen. Our law firm library uses a similar system. It strains credulity that such behaviour would be “common” and yet law librarians unaware of it and fail to move the implicated books to the closed shelf. Moreover, there are several publicly available law libraries in a large city, and they have an active inter-library loan system. Your hypothetical thief would have to visit each one and steal all copies of a book, if s/he wanted to keep it out of other’s hands. To my mind, sounds like a typical “urban myth” pointing to the (always popular to mention) greed and dishonesty of lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/33 "2009-03-16T14:57:25Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I’ve also heard (from many, many lawyers) that books are often stolen from the libraries of law schools, not because someone wants them, but to keep anyone else from being able to use those books. The thief thus enhances his or her class ranking, or at least hopes to do so. I’ve heard the same story, but in my version it was pre-med students at Johns Hopkins stealing the books for that reason. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/34 "2009-03-16T16:29:27Z")
I think it’s a standard urban legend that’s trotted out on campuses, just like the library that wasn’t built to carry the weight of the books. I’ve been in a lot of law libraries, and I’ve never seen defaced books (one version of the UL is that key cases are ripped out), nor have I heard of problems keeping particular books on the shelves. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/35 "2009-03-16T17:18:56Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > To my mind, sounds like a typical “urban myth” pointing to the (always popular to mention) greed and dishonesty of lawyers. It may indeed be an urban myth. Seems to be one in circulation mostly among lawyers, though. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/36 "2009-03-16T18:15:22Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > It may indeed be an urban myth. Seems to be one in circulation mostly among lawyers, though. Heh, you are circulating it - are you a lawyer? 😃 A friend of a friend told me that lawyers never say stuff like that. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/37 "2009-03-16T18:47:25Z")
When I was in law school, the closest thing I saw to the “law school library” myth was where one person would borrow a book from the library, and share it with his or her study group. That would keep the book out of circulation for a while, but it would be returned by its due date; or sooner, if there was a request. In the meantime, six to eight people had used it. Still a long way from borrowing/misplacing/defacing a book just to get an advantage over one’s classmates though. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/38 "2009-03-16T19:38:28Z")
We are awash in Origin of Species and Mein Kampf. My experience aligns with the annecdotes here. People steal books because they WANT to read them, not because they don’t want anyone else to read them. ASVAB test materials, of late, are impossible to keep on the shelves. My theory-Lots of unemployed young people are turning to the military. Also, popular black fiction. That’s one of our major demographic zones and almost everything on our shelves has been declared “lost” (“probably stolen”). **Guinness Book of World Records** is the clear winner here. Probably because we buy one copy per year which is stolen the day it’s put out, whereas we have multiple copies of classics, test books, popular fiction. Since we have many branches and most thieves/annoyances/people of interest only operate within their geographical area, we can always get items on hold. Loss rates seem branch-specific. People can’t be bothered to organize any systemic campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/39 "2009-03-16T20:43:19Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > My experience aligns with the annecdotes here. People steal books because they WANT to read them, not because they don’t want anyone else to read them. Specifically, they want to read them, but are embarrassed to check them out from a librarian. Here in Minneapolis, all of our libraries now have self-checkout machines, so you can check out your books yourself. That seems to be helping solve this problem a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361/40 "2009-03-16T20:52:31Z")
Good lord, **Rysler** , you EVER had ASVAB books on the shelf? We had to just quit buying them - we have a database with all that test stuff in it. We had to stop throwing money away at GED and ASVAB books. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-secretly-stealing-origin-of-species-from-public-libraries/489361.md?page=3)