# Are Fundamentalists the Atheist's best friend? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678 "2010-01-27T19:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/101 "2010-01-29T00:59:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I have no idea what you just said. That sums up the totality of our interactions I think. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/102 "2010-01-29T00:59:52Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > You got a mouse in your pocket, or is this you and your buddies at atheist church? Now you have me wondering what you think atheists worship at this church you think we have. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/103 "2010-01-29T01:00:17Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Sure, but name me one popular religion that doesn’t beleive in an omnimax and benevolent god. Why? I am not defending religions, I am attacking those who declare that they know there is no god, with no qualifier. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/104 "2010-01-29T01:01:45Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That sums up the totality of our interactions I think. Are you **trying** to be insulting and offensive? > [@whole\_bean](#): > > Why? I am not defending religions, I am attacking those who declare that they know there is no god, with no qualifier. And who do you think that might be? Not me, I hope, as I’ve already told you otherwise quite explicitly. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/105 "2010-01-29T01:03:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Just a second ago, we were talking about the _Christian_ God. > > Sorry I can’t keep up. No, you were talking about a Chritstina god , and I was pointing out that not believing in a Christian god does not equate to not beliving in some kind of god, much less taking the additonal affirmatvie step that no God exists. I have never defended the concept of a Chrsitian god in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/106 "2010-01-29T01:04:22Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > True, but of course this doesn’t allow you to claim that benevolent gods don’t exist, since you can’t actually claim with perfect certainty that an evil-ridden universe exists. Maybe you’re the only person that exists other than God. Of course, if you yourself are evil, then I suppose you could be certain that there’s no God… Personally, I don’t like “logical” arguments for or against god. What we need to do is look at the evidence. People may believe all kinds of stupid or clever ideas. What people _pray to_ are gods that have some kind of effect. Gods that have no effect are just ideas that make you feel good. God that do affect reality leave evidence. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/107 "2010-01-29T01:04:46Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > True, but of course this doesn’t allow you to claim that benevolent gods don’t exist, since you can’t actually claim with perfect certainty that an evil-ridden universe exists. Maybe you’re the only person that exists other than God. Of course, if you yourself are evil, then I suppose you could be certain that there’s no God… Err, I don’t watch the news, but I’m not _that_ unaware of things. (“Evil” in this context is commonly interpreted as including any source of pain, including natural disasters - it’s basically fitted up with whatever you’re calling “benevolent”.) Plus, I _am_ evil. (I say so myself, more often than you might think.) So there you have it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/108 "2010-01-29T01:04:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Are you **trying** to be insulting and offensive? I don’t know, are you insecure about having trouble understanding me? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/109 "2010-01-29T01:05:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And who do you think that might be? > > Not me, I hope, as I’ve already told you otherwise quite explicitly. No, so long as you recognize that the traditional Christian concept of god is not the only concept of god. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/110 "2010-01-29T01:06:16Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > No, you were talking about a Chritstina god , and I was pointing out that not believing in a Christian god does not equate to not beliving in some kind of god, much less taking the additonal affirmatvie step that no God exists. I have never defended the concept of a Chrsitian god in this thread. Is that so. I do wonder who you think you’re arguing against, and what you think you’re arguing for. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/111 "2010-01-29T01:06:20Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > There is no beer in my hand. There is no woman in this room. There is no chocolate in my desk drawer. The thing is, the abstract concept “God” may not be falsifiable, but there are a heck of a lot of definitions of God or gods which _can_ be falsified, at least to the extent you can falsify a statement like “Earth and the whole Universe are no more than 10,000 years old”. And a lot of those more concrete concepts of God are way more popular and influential than some philosophical construct of an otherwise unspecified First Cause. Which is one reason why I call myself an atheist rather than an agnostic: For the “Gods” which really matter to most people, it’s far more accurate to say I’m an atheist than an agnostic, even though I certainly fit some definitions of the latter term as well. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/112 "2010-01-29T01:07:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Is that so. > > I do wonder who you think you’re arguing against, and what you think you’re arguing for. Anyone who says that they know that there is no god (no qualifiers). ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/113 "2010-01-29T01:08:27Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Why? I am not defending religions, I am attacking those who declare that they know there is no god, with no qualifier. Dude, I don’t believe there are gods that affect our reality. There may be a bunch of things out somewhere that we might define as gods but don’t bother us at all. I’m fine with that, but I don’t go believing in them either unless you show me they exist. If you want me to pray to them you’d better also show that praying to them is of some use to me. As far as I can see, that still makes me an atheist. I’m certainly not a “we cannot know with absolute certainty, therefore we shouldn’t choose the mostly likely explanation” kind of agnostic. That kind of thinking doesn’t make me breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/114 "2010-01-29T01:08:45Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The thing is, the abstract concept “God” may not be falsifiable, but there are a heck of a lot of definitions of God or gods which _can_ be falsified, at least to the extent you can falsify a statement like “Earth and the whole Universe are no more than 10,000 years old”. And a lot of those more concrete concepts of God are way more popular and influential than some philosophical construct of an otherwise unspecified First Cause. Which is one reason why I call myself an atheist rather than an agnostic: For the “Gods” which really matter to most people, it’s far more accurate to say I’m an atheist than an agnostic, even though I certainly fit some definitions of the latter term as well. No disagreement from me. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/115 "2010-01-29T01:11:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t know, are you insecure about having trouble understanding me? You’re very good at playing the “bait them into doing something Warningworthy without crossing the line of earning moderator attenton yourself” game, aren’t you? I suppose that _might_ be a fun game. > [@whole\_bean](#): > > No, so long as you recognize that the traditional Christian concept of god is not the only concept of god. Tell me, do _you_ think I recognize that the traditional Christian concept of god is not the only concept of god. > [@whole\_bean](#): > > Anyone who says that they know that there is no god (no qualifiers). I hope you’re as strict about people who say they know where their keys are (no qualifiers), then. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/116 "2010-01-29T01:11:33Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Dude, I don’t believe there are gods that affect our reality. There may be a bunch of things out somewhere that we might define as gods but don’t bother us at all. I’m fine with that, but I don’t go believing in them either unless you show me they exist. If you want me to pray to them you’d better also show that praying to them is of some use to me. > > As far as I can see, that still makes me an atheist. I’m certainly not a “we cannot know with absolute certainty, therefore we shouldn’t choose the mostly likely explanation” kind of agnostic. That kind of thinking doesn’t make me breakfast. For some reason, you seem to think that I’ve argued that you cannot “believe” that there is no god. I haven’t. Not here. I have said you cannot know that there is no god. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/117 "2010-01-29T01:13:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You’re very good at playing the “bait them into doing something Warningworthy without crossing the line of earning moderator attenton yourself” game, aren’t you? Not particularly. The mods around here generally assume it’s my fault. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/118 "2010-01-29T01:14:43Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Personally, I don’t like “logical” arguments for or against god. What we need to do is look at the evidence. People may believe all kinds of stupid or clever ideas. What people _pray to_ are gods that have some kind of effect. Gods that have no effect are just ideas that make you feel good. God that do affect reality leave evidence. I’m certainly with you here. The fact that the God’s existence cannot be disproven is not even special. You can’t prove things about the real world with perfect certainty. You can’t prove that I’m not Roger Cedeno, but let me tell you, I’m not (and I have a higher lifetime batting average). So really, the fact that atheists can’t totally disprove the existence of God is no big deal. We navigate the world searching for the most conceptually clear, most exact, most predictive, and most supported views we can. We do this whether we’re trying to find out whether Higgs bosons exist (message from God: nope! Sorry physicists, y’all can’t handle it) or whether our partners have cheated on us. When I say that my girlfriend hasn’t cheated on me, I can really only say that all of the evidence that I have gathered seems to point away from it. The same goes with God: the idea that reality is governed by a supreme being is not conceptually clear, exact, predictive, or supported by evidence. I feel as confident saying that God doesn’t exist as I do saying that the Holocaust occurred. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/119 "2010-01-29T01:15:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I hope you’re as strict about people who say they know where their keys are (no qualifiers), then. Do you really hope that? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/120 "2010-01-29T01:17:35Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > For some reason, you seem to think that I’ve argued that you cannot “believe” that there is no god. I haven’t. Not here. I have said you cannot know that there is no god. We cannot “know” almost anything outside of rigidly defined logic and mathematics. In the real world, I know who my parents are. I also know that there isn’t a flying spaghetti monster, or santa, or any of the more popular variations of the christian god. I may be proven wrong on all those points. That’s reality. But the “you cannot ever know the non-existance of something” argument is a non-productive one. I know there’s no can of beer under my desk, because it’s in my hand right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678.md?page=7)