# Are Fundamentalists the Atheist's best friend? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678 "2010-01-27T19:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/121 "2010-01-29T01:24:11Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > We cannot “know” almost anything outside of rigidly defined logic and mathematics. In the real world, I know who my parents are. I also know that there isn’t a flying spaghetti monster, or santa, or any of the more popular variations of the christian god. I may be proven wrong on all those points. That’s reality. But the “you cannot ever know the non-existance of something” argument is a non-productive one. I know there’s no can of beer under my desk, because it’s in my hand right now. Yeah, ok, so? I’m glad we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/122 "2010-01-29T01:26:23Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Yeah, ok, so? I’m glad we agree. So you’re hijacking this thread to make a semantic point? I wouldn’t have bothered to argue if you made that clear up front. Oh well, this is the straight dope. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/123 "2010-01-29T01:27:08Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > So you’re hijacking this thread to make a semantic point? I wouldn’t have bothered to argue if you made that clear up front. Oh well, this is the straight dope. What do you mean? That’s an SDMB tradition! ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/124 "2010-01-29T01:28:05Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > You can’t prove things about the real world with perfect certainty. You can’t prove that I’m not Roger Cedeno Sure I could, at least to a much higher degree of certainty than you can show there is no god. > [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > I feel as confident saying that God doesn’t exist as I do saying that the Holocaust occurred And I’m happy you’re confident, but I trust you won;t be offended if I do not share your conclusions. To quote Trey Parker, “Basically … out of all the ridiculous religion stories which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous — the silliest one I’ve ever heard is, 'Yeah … there’s this big giant universe and it’s expanding, it’s all gonna collapse on itself and we’re all just here just 'cause … just ‘cause’. That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever.” ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/125 "2010-01-29T01:30:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What do you mean? That’s an SDMB tradition! Sure, but it looked to me like he was actually trying to make some kind of _interesting_ point. If the point is just that we shouldn’t use the word “know” for anything outside logic and mathematics, I think this thread is not the place. Also: down with solipsism! ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/126 "2010-01-29T01:31:19Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > So you’re hijacking this thread to make a semantic point? I wouldn’t have bothered to argue if you made that clear up front. Oh well, this is the straight dope. my first post in this thread: > [@](#): > > Do you honestly not know what he meant? Fundie Christians and Fundi atheists are equally certain about something that neither can prove or disprove. > > It’s one thing to say, “I don’t belive in God, a god or gods.” Quite another to say, “I affirmatively know that there is no God, a god or gods.” The latter is infested with the same arrogance and delusion that convinces the young earth creationists that the fossils were planted by evolutionists. Pretty clear to me, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/127 "2010-01-29T01:31:19Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Oh garbage. I’ve never said Christianity is right. Why must you create such a strawman? I’ve said you cannot know that a god (of some sort) does not exist. You simply can’t. That you feel you must attack a single brand of deism in order to attack the concept of a deity suggest you have no strong argument against the latter. No, it means that I am generally talking to Christians, and that most of the people who start talking about some generic non-Christian god are defending a god they don’t believe in themselves. A concept of God that primarily exists to use in arguments with atheists. > [@whole\_bean](#): > > You’ve added two qualifiers - omnimax and benevolent. Neither is necessary for the existence of a god. And now we have the changing of definitions. Yet another standard religious defense. the onimax God is the god most people who believe in _a_ God believe in, the one that actually matters. Unless they are trying to defend their religion, then they start changing the definition of “God” to evade their opponents arguments. > [@whole\_bean](#): > > Sure I could, at least to a much higher degree of certainty than you can show there is no god. Nonsense. It’s not physically impossible that he/she is Roger Cedeno. \*\*The Bith Shuffle \*\* could be hallucinating that he/she isn’t, or under alien mind control - both of which are much more plausible than God. Pretty much anything is. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/128 "2010-01-29T01:36:13Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Sure, but it looked to me like he was actually trying to make some kind of _interesting_ point. If the point is just that we shouldn’t use the word “know” for anything outside logic and mathematics, I think this thread is not the place. > > Also: down with solipsism! Eh, interesting is in the eye of the beholder. The fundamentalist Christian thinks he “knows” what he claims about God in the same way that an atheist who says he knows there is no god. It was really clear from the beginning - my very first post. I can’t help if that eluded you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/129 "2010-01-29T01:37:06Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Sure I could, at least to a much higher degree of certainty than you can show there is no god. That’s unlikely, given the validity of the Problem of Evil. If the real world contains tons of things God would consider evil if he existed, their existence contradicts God’s supposed omnipotence and omniscience. So you have to show that these things don’t exist in the real world. > [@whole\_bean](#): > > And I’m happy you’re confident, but I trust you won;t be offended if I do not share your conclusions. To quote Trey Parker, “Basically … out of all the ridiculous religion stories which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous — the silliest one I’ve ever heard is, 'Yeah … there’s this big giant universe and it’s expanding, it’s all gonna collapse on itself and we’re all just here just 'cause … just ‘cause’. That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever.” I won’t get offended, I’ll just assume that I can respond with arguments and you’ll respond with arguments, and so forth. The quote you gave is both a distortion of science and a failure to be conceptually clear about what God could be supposed to be. Most physicists today think that the universe will end in a heat death, not a big crunch. But more importantly, the sort of causal baggage the quote contains: “'cause … just ‘cause’” is not part of modern science at all. The quote is more emotional rambling than anything. And the conceptual issue with God is that you’re just pushing the prime mover back further. If we suppose that each thing was caused by something else, moving backward in a chain of causation requires us to conclude that there is either something which exists just because it does (and there is no explanation for it) or there is an infinite backward chain of causation. In the latter case, a god might exist (though not an Abrahamic one, since the Problem of Evil still applies), but any god would itself simply be the result of some previous cause. Now, let’s suppose that the former is the true: there is a prime mover, something which is just there because it is. Why does it make more sense to suppose that that thing is a God than it does to suppose that it is, say, a big bang, or a universe, or a multiverse, or one of a bunch of different possibilities (some wholly scientific, some mystical) that one might cook up? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/130 "2010-01-29T01:38:12Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > The fundamentalist Christian thinks he “knows” what he claims about God in the same way that an atheist who says he knows there is no god. Not true; the atheist has facts and logic on his side. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/131 "2010-01-29T01:38:38Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > my first post in this thread: > > Pretty clear to me, dude. Right. And I could redefine santa claus in such a way that you couldn’t “know” he didn’t exist. Random definitions are useless. People believe in actual things. The type of entity that anybody outside of these threads (you know, the real world) actually calls god (within these types of threads we’ve had plenty of people trying to deny gods are actually entities and I’m not going there) does not exist. I know that because it would be abundently clear if that god did exist. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/132 "2010-01-29T01:38:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. It’s not physically impossible that he/she is Roger Cedeno. \*\*The Bith Shuffle \*\* could be hallucinating that he/she isn’t, or under alien mind control - both of which are much more plausible than God. Pretty much anything is. If he’s not it’s possible to prove it, much mroeso than it is possible to prove the non-existence of god. As for the rest of your post, I can’t help your hard-on for Christianity, but it is not the beginning and end (alpha and omega, if you will) of the concept of god. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/133 "2010-01-29T01:40:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not true; the atheist has facts and logic on his side. and still cannot reach a certain conclusion. Please say you know god doesn’t exist, please. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/134 "2010-01-29T01:41:28Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Right. And I could redefine santa claus in such a way that you couldn’t “know” he didn’t exist. Random definitions are useless. People believe in actual things. The type of entity that anybody outside of these threads (you know, the real world) actually calls god (within these types of threads we’ve had plenty of people trying to deny gods are actually entities and I’m not going there) does not exist. I know that because it would be abundently clear if that god did exist. It’s absurd that you’re limitting the concept of a diety to a Christian god. Have a sack. Be an atheist, not an a(Christian)theist. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/135 "2010-01-29T01:43:58Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > It’s absurd that you’re limitting the concept of a diety to a Christian god. Have a sack. Be an atheist, not an a(Christian)theist. Funny you think I’m talking about the christian god. If it makes you feel any better, I don’t believe in reincarnation, buddha, allah, pantheism, spirits, fairies, ghosts, ESP, zeus, mars or any other supernatural being that I’ve ever heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/136 "2010-01-29T01:44:00Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > As for the rest of your post, I can’t help your hard-on for Christianity, but it is not the beginning and end (alpha and omega, if you will) of the concept of god. In other words, we are supposed to pretend that this isn’t a conversation about the Christian god. Instead, we are supposed to pretend it is a conversation about some carefully undefined version of God. > [@whole\_bean](#): > > and still cannot reach a certain conclusion. Please say you know god doesn’t exist, please. Of course I know there is no God, the same way I know there is no Santa Claus. I’m not going to go along with your little scheme of religious privilege. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/137 "2010-01-29T01:49:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course I know there is no God. Thanks, someone up thread didn’t belive people like you existed. Ironic. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/138 "2010-01-29T01:50:59Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Thanks, someone up thread didn’t belive people like you existed. Ironic. Really? I’ll say it too: I know that there is no God. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/139 "2010-01-29T01:51:09Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Funny you think I’m talking about the christian god. > > If it makes you feel any better, I don’t believe in reincarnation, buddha, allah, pantheism, spirits, fairies, ghosts, ESP, zeus, mars or any other supernatural being that I’ve ever heard of. eh, maybe I was confusing you with someone else. Or else, I made an incorrect assumption. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/140 "2010-01-29T01:52:19Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > Really? I’ll say it too: I know that there is no God. Awesome, the count grows. (we’re not limitting this god to a certain brand, right? You know there is no deity that is supernatural?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678.md?page=8)