# Are Fundamentalists the Atheist's best friend? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678 "2010-01-27T19:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/161 "2010-01-29T07:46:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > LOL, nah, they are extremists. Have you heard Dawkins talk about education and how he’d like to have public education inoculate people against religion? > > He’s an extremist. He might not seem like one to you, but perhaps that’s because you feel an affinity for him. And how does that make him an extremist? You are simply providing an example of the double standard where atheists are judged to be far more extreme for far milder positions than believers are. Just like I have often on this board been compared to Fred Phelps, a man who pickets funerals, for the terrible transgression of arguing with people on a discussion board. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/162 "2010-01-29T07:50:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And how does that make him an extremist? Wanting the Government to take away the parental rights to raise their kids in their own cultural beliefs? That’s not extremist to you? It is to most people. > [@](#): > > You are simply providing an example of the double standard where atheists are judged to be far more extreme for far milder positions than believers are. Nonsense, if a religious person said they thought the state should force kids to go and learn about Jesus, I’d think they were extremists too. > [@](#): > > Just like I have often on this board been compared to Fred Phelps, a man who pickets funerals, for the terrible transgression of arguing with people on a discussion board. Ok, you are passive in your very broad-based hatred. Fred Phelps isn’t passive. So in that, you are not like Fred Phelps, but you’re definitely on par with some passive dude on Stormfront. Just as hateful. Sorry dude, I’ve seen too many of your screeds about how much you hate so many different groups and your petty justifications. ‘It’s ok to hate the hateful.’ Sorry, but to me, that’s the same. People who hate broad groups of people, and think the Government should force people to think like them via compulsory education are extremists IMV, regardless of what their ideology is. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/163 "2010-01-29T08:05:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Wanting the Government to take away the parental rights to raise their kids in their own cultural beliefs? That’s not extremist to you? It is to most people. Considering that teaching kids to act in a civilized fashion is part of the job of the school system, it isn’t. Besides; the primary arguments against religion aren’t “cultural”; they are factual and logical and practical. > [@mswas](#): > > Nonsense, if a religious person said they thought the state should force kids to go and learn about Jesus, I’d think they were extremists too. You’d think it extreme to teach a history of religion course? > [@mswas](#): > > Sorry dude, I’ve seen too many of your screeds about how much you hate so many different groups and your petty justifications. ‘It’s ok to hate the hateful.’ Unless you are a liberal or an atheist. Then you are supposed to grovel before those who hate you, as they deluge you with hatred. Like you want me to. > [@mswas](#): > > Sorry, but to me, that’s the same. People who hate broad groups of people, and think the Government should force people to think like them via compulsory education are extremists IMV, regardless of what their ideology is. So people who hate the Nazis and want racial tolerance taught in schools are extremists? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/164 "2010-01-29T08:33:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Have you heard Dawkins talk about education and how he’d like to have public education inoculate people against religion? Just for my own curiosity, what passages or articles by Dawkins are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/165 "2010-01-29T08:41:33Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Just for my own curiosity, what passages or articles by Dawkins are you referring to? I think he said something like that in _The God Delusion_; I don’t actually own a copy to check it though. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/166 "2010-01-29T12:53:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > LOL, nah, they are extremists. Have you heard Dawkins talk about education and how he’d like to have public education inoculate people against religion? Education, if done correctly, is a _de facto_ inoculation against religion. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/167 "2010-01-29T14:10:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There was this little group of ethical philosophical movements called [Hellenism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_philosophy), you may have heard of it? Maybe not by that name, but somehow, I’m sure you’ve heard its teachings. I just … know it. I’m vaguely aware of it, yes. I’ve heard a little bit about it. I’ve heard that it really caught on when integrated into Christianity. More seriously, I’m not sure that the existence of Greek classical philosophy refutes the proposition that Christianity was really the first religion (in the West) to espouse a universal morality and the brotherhood of man. I’m not sure the Hellenes were any less tribal than anyone else back then. Certainly Christians have failed, all too often, on what their own faith teaches them, and will do so again and again in the future, but that doesn’t mean that Christianity didn’t introduce some radical new ideas into our consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/168 "2010-01-29T14:22:33Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > …but that doesn’t mean that Christianity didn’t introduce some radical new ideas into our consciousness. And what would some of these radical _new_ ideas be? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/169 "2010-01-29T15:04:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what would some of these radical _new_ ideas be? New and exciting tribal lines 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/170 "2010-01-29T16:02:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I think he said something like that in _The God Delusion_; I don’t actually own a copy to check it though. Maybe it was this one? > [@The God Delusion](#): > > “I thank my own parents for taking the view that children should be taught not so much what to think as how to think. If, having been fairly and properly exposed to all the scientific evidence, they grow up and decide that the Bible is literally true or that the movements of the planets rule their lives, that is their privilege. The important point is that it is their privilege to decide what they shall think, and not their parents’ privilege to impose it by force majeure.” > (Chapter 9, p. 327) That’s almost exactly what you’d expect a fundamentalist to say. ETA. If you squint a little, you can see how Dawkins would want to round up all the children of christians and send them to re-education camps. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/171 "2010-01-29T16:25:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Considering that teaching kids to act in a civilized fashion is part of the job of the school system, it isn’t. And Dawkins is saying that he should be one of the people who gets to decide what is ‘civilized’. I’m sure he and Pat Robertson have something in common there. > [@](#): > > Besides; the primary arguments against religion aren’t “cultural”; they are factual and logical and practical. This is a meaningless non-statement. > [@](#): > > You’d think it extreme to teach a history of religion course? I’d think it extreme to take away school choice from parents and force an anti-religious curriculum on them yes. > [@](#): > > Unless you are a liberal or an atheist. Then you are supposed to grovel before those who hate you, as they deluge you with hatred. Like you want me to. No, I really don’t expect you to understand my point of view anymore than I would expect your Christian fundie mirror-image to. > [@](#): > > So people who hate the Nazis and want racial tolerance taught in schools are extremists? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/172 "2010-01-29T16:26:46Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Education, if done correctly, is a _de facto_ inoculation against religion. Nonsense. Religion is an useful and important part of people’s lives. It’s just under attack by people who take the lowest common denominator and extrapolate, that this is all that religion has to offer. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/173 "2010-01-29T16:36:19Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > Really? I’ll say it too: I know that there is no God. No - I’m Der Trihs. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/174 "2010-01-29T16:39:55Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Nonsense. Religion is an useful and important part of people’s lives. No it is not. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/175 "2010-01-29T16:40:00Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Just for my own curiosity, what passages or articles by Dawkins are you referring to? [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eJ0iXQaD4IA/hqdefault.jpg "Richard Dawkins - On Education (Part 2 of 2)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ0iXQaD4IA) In this video he talks about how the Government should abolish faith schools and that it’s the proper role of Government schooling to deprogram kids who have been taught that they are religious by their parents. Of course he goes into the disingenuous notion that he’s not anti-religion, but pro-science. The same canard that people on this forum hide behind all the time. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/176 "2010-01-29T16:41:04Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > No it is not. Yes, it is. Atheists like to believe that they are not dogmatic, but they are no less dogmatic, and there is a common theme amongst atheism even though atheists like to pretend that there isn’t groupthink going on. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/177 "2010-01-29T16:45:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, it is. Atheists like to believe that they are not dogmatic, but they are no less dogmatic, and there is a common theme amongst atheism even though atheists like to pretend that there isn’t groupthink going on. Which, even assuming the absolute truth of the assertion (and that’s a job and a half)… still doesn’t make religion important, nevermind useful. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/178 "2010-01-29T16:49:55Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Which, even assuming the absolute truth of the assertion (and that’s a job and a half)… still doesn’t make religion important, nevermind useful. Good point. Religion is true, because atheism is really a religion? Excuse me-I’ve got to go find my Tylenol 3 bottle. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/179 "2010-01-29T16:51:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Which, even assuming the absolute truth of the assertion (and that’s a job and a half)… still doesn’t make religion important, nevermind useful. Well I’ve found that for the most part atheists do not even understand what the role of religion is. Or how it plays a role in their own lives, or recognizing their own religious behavior. In short it is IMPOSSIBLE to live a life without religion. You can lie to yourself and say that you do, but there are always things you are religious about. Patriotism is a form of religion. Rabid adherence to an anti-religious stance is religious. Religion is about the forms and rituals that govern our cultural life. You can double-speak it to death if you want and claim that you’re not religious, but ultimately there will be some sort groupthink that will develop its own forms and rituals. By saying that religion is unecessary, or worse claiming that its the proper role of government to stop religious faith, you are merely replacing one set of forms and rituals for another. In America many atheists (Who don’t have the power to do so…yet) believe that religion should be diminished. THey side-step the freedom of religion clause by claiming that what they are advancing is not a religion. But it’s still a set of forms and rituals that define a culture. They disingenuously claim they are ‘pro-science’ but science is indifferent to your religious belief or (dishonestly claimed) lack thereof. Religion is what binds society together, whether it’s a belief in the state or a belief in God. At some point you exercise through common forms and rituals a belief and adherence to the importance of a higher power. If you do not, then there is no longer a society to speak of and it will break apart as there will no longer be any commonality between the people. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678/180 "2010-01-29T17:04:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ0iXQaD4IA&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ0iXQaD4IA&feature=related) > > In this video he talks about how the Government should abolish faith schools and that it’s the proper role of Government schooling to deprogram kids who have been taught that they are religious by their parents. You do realize that faith schools in Britain are mostly state-sponsored, right? By the way, he explicitely does not say that “it’s the proper role of Government schooling to deprogram kids who have been taught that they are religious by their parents”. What he’s saying is that it’s an awful idea to have schools reinforce that religion in their pupils - which is what faith schools do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-fundamentalists-the-atheists-best-friend/526678.md?page=10)