Are Fundamentalists the Atheist's best friend?

To the degree that they attempt to supplant other ideologies yes.

My particular views are difficult to pin down. I am highly influenced by Christianity, but I generally believe that God is God. I don’t believe in the autonomy of the individual, that we are all parts of the larger categories that contain us, such as the state, the eco-system, clubs we belong to etc… I do not believe that cognition is an individual process as much as it is a social one. That in a vacuum our ability to form rational thought is very limited without the inculcation of moral and critical tradition. So, I am nominally a Christian in a way, as I do believe in the resurrection and eternal life, but I don’t take that to be so much literal, as a recognition of our nature as part of a collective consciousness.

No, my believes are too pantheistic and syncretic to really stake a claim to one particular religion.

My point is about what atheism would have to become in order to supplant the religious social order it attempts to supplant. Not about what its current state is. It matters that it denies the existence of Gods because that’s fundamental to the ideology. But the problem with belief systems based around the negation of other belief systems is that they leave a vacuum of belief that seeks to be filled. One must understand precisely what is engendered by the forms and rituals of the culture it attempts to supplant in order to effectively supplant that culture in order to manage the unintended consequences that occur. Also, belief tends to cohere around personality. People of a certain personality tend to gravitate toward the ideological options that most reflect their personality type. For instance a study just came out recently that says that Conservatives are more susceptible to fear than Liberals. So as such, those who are more fearful, or more specifically, fearful of change would gravitate toward conservatism. Just as those in a greater fear of their mortality might gravitate toward Christianity. The central conceit of atheism is the idea that because the atheist doesn’t need the belief, then others do not need the belief in God. This is irrespective of whether or not God actually exists.

So, what people generally blame religion for, I would blame the myopia of ideology for. The limited ability to perceive the greater implications of one’s actions is a part of the human experience, and oftentimes we tend to over-estimate our ability to comprehend the world around us, this is particularly pertinent when we exercise our will-to-power and attempt to organize and formulate a society. As such, an atheistic society in its attempts at pluralism and universalism is only as capable of forming a cohesive society as its elites are capable of empathizing with the plurality of human experience. Religious societies are similarly limited of course. At some point, someone gets left out of the social order and enmity forms, and the passion play of human grudges plays itself out within the social order. You may notice that I implicitly reject egalitarianism. I do not believe in equality, not as in I don’t believe people SHOULD be equal, but that I don’t believe that they CAN be equal. The idea that education can assuage ignorance is IMO a dangerous dogma. Some people are simply smarter than others, and that human culture needs hierarchy, not heterarchy, to function. Even if we were to establish a heterarchist plurality, eventually a hierarchical organization would form within the heterarchy and seek dominance. As such other hierarchies would coalesce to oppose that hierarchy, and you would be right back where you were with competing hierarchies. The aesthetic representation, while important, is irrelevant to whether or not it would formulate conflict.

In the end of the day the only way belief goes away is for those who believe it to die out. Therefore the only way to end belief actively is to kill off those who believe a certain way.

There is also the matter of the way cultural forms concentrate as their numbers dwindle, particularly if it’s due to outside pressures. As Christianity feels under attack, Christians will circle the wagons and the impetus to remain within the in-group will become stronger. The end-result would be that the counter-narrative would have to reorganize itself in a way that would allow it to attack Christianity in new and innovative ways. In this way, culture reforms itself in ways that mirror the culture that it opposes. We see this throughout history in the way wars introduce the ideas of both the aggressor culture and the defensive culture to one another. Americans know more about Islam today than they did on September 10th, 2001, just as the Taliban has relaxed its restrictions on mass media in order to use mass media as a weapon in its culture war.

As such, I might be a good example of this process. As my views are highly influenced by atheism, even though I myself am not an atheist.

Attempts to pretend atheism is a supernatural-free religion are exactly as correct as saying that being a human is a religion. Atheism is, by definition, a category that simply doesn’t include a moral code, organizations, rules, laws, strictures, or really anything else that religions have - except a position on whether there is a god or not. Other than that, it’s an empty box - nothing else comes from being an atheist. This is true regardless of how desperate anyone may be to establish an equivalence between religion and atheism.

Now, this isn’t to say that atheists don’t have moral codes or belief systems, or even that atheists are unable to form organizations with rules and strictures or even canon texts of beliefs. The thing is, though, if they did so these organizations would not become part of the definition of atheism; atheism would be part of the definition of these new organizations, in the same way that Christianity and Judaism are theistic organizations (and theism isn’t a Christian organization).

To reiterate the obvious, atheism isn’t comparable with religion: atheism is comparable with theism. It’s a catagory, a label, and an extremely basic one at that, that includes a wide swath of different belief systems and potential organizations.

Seriously, trying to call it a religion is like saying that green is a fruit. Even if you can find green fruits it’s still wrong.

Right, and until it can supplant the role of religion in culture, society will continue to require religion.

I have two guesses:

  1. A fundamentalist atheist is a loud and annoying one. Which may or may not be any atheist that is willing to actually debate the issue rather than conceding that the theists may be probably right.

  2. A fundamentalist atheist is any “hard” atheist. That is, any who states they’re certain there’s no god. This may go double if they don’t restrict their firm disbelief to gods that are strictly defined, like the Christian god (who I’ll note is actually not very strictly defined at all). If a person doesn’t give “gods” a pass due to the lack of capital letter, they may qualify.
    On that subject, I’d just like to say, I concede that gods exist. I’ve got one here on my desk. It resembles like a styrofoam cup. It’s really good at emulating a styrofoam cup, in every possible way, down to the smallest detail - you might even say it’s omnistyrofoamcupotent.

In fact, my desk has lots of gods on it, including ones that have omnipaperence and omniipodolence. Gods are everywhere! And I beleve in lots and lots of them.

Why will society require religion, again? (And why can’t something other than atheism supplant it?)

I apologize if you already said it - I’ve been sort of skimming the thread to catch up. A brief summary would be more than sufficient.

Atheism is not meant to supplant religion. It is meant to point out that religion is a waste of your time and at the very least misleading. How you wish to fill that gap is another question and could be answered a number of ways.

I defined it upthread, my man. Hell, you replied to the post it’s in.

Well, I’ve been supporting it in the thread. Basically the idea is that it would have to establish forms and ceremonies that fulfill some of the cultural roles that people get from religion. So essentially, there would have to be some sort of ‘religious’ behavior minus the belief in God. But that a hierarchical belief in a higher power is necessary. The state might supplant God as such, but there would have to be SOMETHING that fulfills those particular needs.

What about the “higher power” of humanity, or kindness…could those work?

Neatly excluding Dawkins! Nice!

That’s about my position too. I am happy that I did not make the cut.

Are there any examples of prominent fundamentalist atheists?

‘Work’ depends on the structure of the forms and ceremonies used to support the ideals. Yes, they would, ‘work’, and I say this provisionally, because a religion is a very complex ideological structure. Christianity is not merely a belief in God for instance.

But that “something” isn’t atheism. It might be humanism, it might be Communism, it might be Objectivism, but atheism itself don’t cut it. So, if you cannot simply slot atheism, pure and simple, in religion’s place, then in what way is atheism analagous to religion, again?

This is the crux of the entire argument. You should go back and re-read my posts because that’s the entire thesis of my argument and I don’t have time to reprise what I spent all afternoon addressing.

But yes, it be humanism (A Christian ideology originally). It could be Communism. But there would have to be some sort of analog to religion to replace religion.

So, it would be a religion if people “worshiped” kindness and structured forms and ceremonies that revolved around being kind towards other people? That is a religion I might be able to get into! :slight_smile:

Yes, basically. Or else analogous to religion if you don’t accept my definition of religion.

I don’t know about prominent. I’m not a groupie. As for examples, **Der Trihs ** seems to fit the bill.

By this standard all theists are fundamentalists.

He doesn’t.

And, given how carefully you’ve avoided defining “gods”, nobody does. As noted, given that strict lack of definition I am certainly a theist, since I believe in my styrofoam cup.

As I rather explicitly pointed out in my post, this cannot the atheism, and atheism cannot retain these forms and still meet the definition. (Not to say that some organization couldn’t form and call itself “Atheism”, but that’s of course not the same thing.)

Atheism isn’t comparable to religion. Atheism is comparable to simple theism - assuming it’s a kind of theism with no rules, texts, orders, threats, suggestions, requirements, or anything else of the kind.

If you are saying that other organizations would have to step in to fill the void caused by a removal of religion, then sure - though again atheism wouldn’t do that. Of course, organizations already exist that provide most of these things. For example, secular social clubs based on common interests could stand in for the societal function of church. Secular charities could stand in for church donations. Counselors and psychologists could stand in for confessionals. Taxation could fill the void left by the removal of tithing. Secular doctors and hospitals could stand in for healing blessings. Science could stand in for creation myths. Politicians could fill the role of telling people their beliefs are right and that they know better than other people who disagree with them.

In fact, I’ve heard that there are already countries with largely atheistic or only weakly religious people. This would suggest that not only do such organizations already exist, but they are already serving this function.

To reiterate, though, these organizations are not “atheism”. At best the are organizations that just happen to be atheistic in nature, like Ford Motors and the coalition of objects inside your refridgerator.

In the case of religion, that would be madness, mutual hatred, and ignorance. All of which are things that should be eliminated, not replaced with new versions.

I see no reason to think that anyone who doesn’t belong in a mental institution needs to believe in God.

In other words, if a religion calls for the massacre of unbelievers or the rape & enslavement of women, and the believers do what they are told it, conveniently isn’t the fault of the religion. No matter how awful the things are that a religion tells people to do, it isn’t a problem with the religion.

Nonsense. A society is formed by everyone, not just its “elites”.

No, religious societes are worse, and people are not left out “at some point”; they are left out the moment religion comes along. Because at that point, there are believers and unbelievers; religion by its nature produces a divided society. In fact, that is one of Dawkins’ arguments as to why religion is destructive; by nature, it produces division and a contempt for others.

More nonsense. All you need to do is convince them or their children that they are wrong, and let age take care of the stubborn ones. The belief that left handedness is some sort of horrible defect has largely been eliminated in America; oddly enough, this process didn’t involve people who thought that left handedness is bad being rounded up into extermination camps.

Many, many beliefs go away simply because people are convinced otherwise.

My favorite line about this is that “Calling atheism a religion is like calling ‘bald’ a hair color.”

And “not collecting stamps” is a hobby.

I spend a lot of time doing this, actually.