That sums up the totality of our interactions I think.
Now you have me wondering what you think atheists worship at this church you think we have.
Why? I am not defending religions, I am attacking those who declare that they know there is no god, with no qualifier.
Are you trying to be insulting and offensive?
And who do you think that might be?
Not me, I hope, as I’ve already told you otherwise quite explicitly.
No, you were talking about a Chritstina god , and I was pointing out that not believing in a Christian god does not equate to not beliving in some kind of god, much less taking the additonal affirmatvie step that no God exists. I have never defended the concept of a Chrsitian god in this thread.
Personally, I don’t like “logical” arguments for or against god. What we need to do is look at the evidence. People may believe all kinds of stupid or clever ideas. What people pray to are gods that have some kind of effect. Gods that have no effect are just ideas that make you feel good. God that do affect reality leave evidence.
Err, I don’t watch the news, but I’m not that unaware of things. (“Evil” in this context is commonly interpreted as including any source of pain, including natural disasters - it’s basically fitted up with whatever you’re calling “benevolent”.)
Plus, I am evil. (I say so myself, more often than you might think.) So there you have it.
I don’t know, are you insecure about having trouble understanding me?
No, so long as you recognize that the traditional Christian concept of god is not the only concept of god.
Is that so.
I do wonder who you think you’re arguing against, and what you think you’re arguing for.
The thing is, the abstract concept “God” may not be falsifiable, but there are a heck of a lot of definitions of God or gods which can be falsified, at least to the extent you can falsify a statement like “Earth and the whole Universe are no more than 10,000 years old”. And a lot of those more concrete concepts of God are way more popular and influential than some philosophical construct of an otherwise unspecified First Cause. Which is one reason why I call myself an atheist rather than an agnostic: For the “Gods” which really matter to most people, it’s far more accurate to say I’m an atheist than an agnostic, even though I certainly fit some definitions of the latter term as well.
Anyone who says that they know that there is no god (no qualifiers).
Dude, I don’t believe there are gods that affect our reality. There may be a bunch of things out somewhere that we might define as gods but don’t bother us at all. I’m fine with that, but I don’t go believing in them either unless you show me they exist. If you want me to pray to them you’d better also show that praying to them is of some use to me.
As far as I can see, that still makes me an atheist. I’m certainly not a “we cannot know with absolute certainty, therefore we shouldn’t choose the mostly likely explanation” kind of agnostic. That kind of thinking doesn’t make me breakfast.
No disagreement from me.
You’re very good at playing the “bait them into doing something Warningworthy without crossing the line of earning moderator attenton yourself” game, aren’t you?
I suppose that might be a fun game.
Tell me, do you think I recognize that the traditional Christian concept of god is not the only concept of god.
I hope you’re as strict about people who say they know where their keys are (no qualifiers), then.
For some reason, you seem to think that I’ve argued that you cannot “believe” that there is no god. I haven’t. Not here. I have said you cannot know that there is no god.
Not particularly. The mods around here generally assume it’s my fault.
I’m certainly with you here.
The fact that the God’s existence cannot be disproven is not even special. You can’t prove things about the real world with perfect certainty. You can’t prove that I’m not Roger Cedeno, but let me tell you, I’m not (and I have a higher lifetime batting average). So really, the fact that atheists can’t totally disprove the existence of God is no big deal.
We navigate the world searching for the most conceptually clear, most exact, most predictive, and most supported views we can. We do this whether we’re trying to find out whether Higgs bosons exist (message from God: nope! Sorry physicists, y’all can’t handle it) or whether our partners have cheated on us. When I say that my girlfriend hasn’t cheated on me, I can really only say that all of the evidence that I have gathered seems to point away from it. The same goes with God: the idea that reality is governed by a supreme being is not conceptually clear, exact, predictive, or supported by evidence. I feel as confident saying that God doesn’t exist as I do saying that the Holocaust occurred.
Do you really hope that?
We cannot “know” almost anything outside of rigidly defined logic and mathematics. In the real world, I know who my parents are. I also know that there isn’t a flying spaghetti monster, or santa, or any of the more popular variations of the christian god. I may be proven wrong on all those points. That’s reality. But the “you cannot ever know the non-existance of something” argument is a non-productive one. I know there’s no can of beer under my desk, because it’s in my hand right now.