# Are government officials allowed to trespass on your property sans warrant? video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682 "2007-05-03T23:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/21 "2007-05-04T15:07:24Z")
[QUOTE=Montgomery0] What rights does he have to sue the deputy as he allowed the woman to illegally trespass even though he was asked to stop her? Would that be some sort of rights violation or just general negligence on the deputy’s part? [/QUOTE] No claim against the officer. He has very broad discretion, and if you allowed people to sue every time a deputy negligently misinterpreted the law, the courts would be jammed. The only claim you might make stick would be a state law trespass claim against the inspector herself, but in my opinion, a jury is not going to award significant damages in this scenario. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/22 "2007-05-04T15:26:48Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Edit: **drachillix** , you are conflating trespass (a state law claim) with unawful search in violation of the 4th Amendment (a federal law claim). Please read the case I linked. It explains constitutional issues in some detail. [/QUOTE] Legal right to be in a given location is a pivotal concept for any valid search. The health inspector is quite obviously conducting an investigation, if she was not, she would have no reason to enter the property at all. I have been reading the link, in the link the plantiff seems to be trying to repel any government contact with his property even if legal. A tax assessor would have the right to enter for purposes of determining tax status, and serving a notice at his front door. If he happens to see a meth lab, he is not endowed with the right to pursue that, he would contact the police, who would have probable cause based on the observations of the tax assessor to get a warrant. Personally if I was the homeowner I would consider the tresspass issue irrelevant seeking compensation on the 4th amendment side. A health inspector has little authority over a residential home without some pretty compelling cause since the simple presence of constuction activity does not imply a public health risk. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/23 "2007-05-04T15:58:16Z")
[QUOTE=drachillix] Legal right to be in a given location is a pivotal concept for any valid search. [/QUOTE] But the court is saying that it is may not be a “search” at all, for purposes of interpreting the 4th Amendment. See the court’s language about the “open field” doctrine, and the language about what constitutes a search within the “curtilage” of the house. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/24 "2007-05-04T16:05:04Z")
[QUOTE=drachillix] A health inspector has little authority over a residential home without some pretty compelling cause since the simple presence of constuction activity does not imply a public health risk. [/QUOTE] It certainly _could_ imply a public health risk, if the digging suggests installation of a septic system in an area not suited for it. We don’t know everything the inspector knows in this case. For all we know, she may have seen something from the road that looked like installation of a septic system, and then pulled the record and found that no soil tests had been done and no septic permit issued. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/25 "2007-05-04T17:13:43Z")
He was probably planting a garden. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/26 "2007-05-04T17:18:01Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] He was probably planting a garden. [/QUOTE] What makes you say that? ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/27 "2007-05-04T17:20:19Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] But the court is saying that it is may not be a “search” at all, for purposes of interpreting the 4th Amendment. See the court’s language about the “open field” doctrine, and the language about what constitutes a search within the “curtilage” of the house. [/QUOTE] Ok, I can see where most likely it was a valid move on her part. IIRC one of the things that was emphasized to us in my investigation class was the intent of our presence. A city/county investigator looking to check for code compliance on something relevant to their job duties is generally fine and is spelled in the permitting process. Entering\* for the purposes of conducting an investigation\*, I was taught, she probably should have a warrant and should be able to get one easily if she can show cause. If they had produced one, this whole video would be irrelevant and he would have no debatable case at all. If there was inappropriate handling of a septic tank install it would still be more the purview of the building inspector IMHO not the health department. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/28 "2007-05-04T19:33:45Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] He was probably planting a garden. [/QUOTE] With a backhoe? ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/29 "2007-05-04T20:06:22Z")
[QUOTE=drachillix] Ok, I can see where most likely it was a valid move on her part. IIRC one of the things that was emphasized to us in my investigation class was the intent of our presence. A city/county investigator looking to check for code compliance on something relevant to their job duties is generally fine and is spelled in the permitting process. Entering\* for the purposes of conducting an investigation\*, I was taught, she probably should have a warrant and should be able to get one easily if she can show cause. If they had produced one, this whole video would be irrelevant and he would have no debatable case at all. If there was inappropriate handling of a septic tank install it would still be more the purview of the building inspector IMHO not the health department. [/QUOTE] Not here in VA. The permitting and inspection of on-site septic systems is under the authority of the Commonwealth of Virginia Department of Health. They (the inspectors) usually have local offices, but they are emloyees of the Commonwealth and not of the counties, cities, or towns. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/30 "2007-05-04T22:31:12Z")
Here in the U.K., we have a concept called ‘Statutory Right of Entry’; do you have something similar in the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/31 "2007-05-04T22:48:35Z")
Liability plays into this - I seem to remember that in the eyes of the law there are three (and _only_ three) types of people on your property - people who have been invited by the property owner to their property. Then, there are civilian jobs who by virtue of their job have to be able to their job without seeking express permission every instance - like the mailman, meter reader, dog-catcher, etc. Thirdly, there are trespassers. Legally, that’s it. Places with known troubles with trespassers (a junk or salvage yard for example) are held to a bit higher standard with regard to trespassers. Kind of off the subject but pertinent. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/32 "2007-05-04T23:06:48Z")
Here’s the [Indiana trespass statute](http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar43/ch2.html) (which I think the guy was trying to cite, but was giving the wrong number): > [@](#): > > ## **IC 35-43-2-2 Criminal trespass** 35-43-2-2 Sec. 2. (a) A person who: (1) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally enters the real property of another person after having been denied entry by the other person or that person’s agent; (2) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally refuses to leave the real property of another person after having been asked to leave by the other person or that person’s agent; (3) accompanies another person in a vehicle, with knowledge that the other person knowingly or intentionally is exerting unauthorized control over the vehicle; (4) knowingly or intentionally interferes with the possession or use of the property of another person without the person’s consent; (5) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally enters the dwelling of another person without the person’s consent; or (6) knowingly or intentionally: indent travels by train without lawful authority or the railroad carrier’s consent; and > > ``` > (B) rides on the outside of a train or inside a passenger car, locomotive, or freight car, including a boxcar, flatbed, or container without lawful authority or the railroad carrier's consent; > > ``` > > commits criminal trespass, a Class A misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Class D felony if it is committed on a scientific research facility, on school property, or on a school bus or the person has a prior unrelated conviction for an offense under this section concerning the same property.[/indent] > (b) A person has been denied entry under subdivision (a)(1) of this section when the person has been denied entry by means of: > (1) personal communication, oral or written; or > (2) posting or exhibiting a notice at the main entrance in a manner that is either prescribed by law or likely to come to the attention of the public. > **(c) Subsections (a) and (b) do not apply to the following:** > (1) A passenger on a train. > (2) An employee of a railroad carrier while engaged in the performance of official duties. > **(3) A law enforcement officer, firefighter, or emergency response personnel while engaged in the performance of official duties.** > (4) A person going on railroad property in an emergency to rescue a person or animal from harm’s way or to remove an object that the person reasonably believes poses an imminent threat to life or limb. > (5) A person on the station grounds or in the depot of a railroad carrier: > indent as a passenger; or > (B) for the purpose of transacting lawful business. > (6) A: > (A) person; or > (B) person’s: > indent family member; > (ii) invitee; > (iii) employee; > (iv) agent; or > (v) independent contractor; > going on a railroad’s right-of-way for the purpose of crossing at a private crossing site approved by the railroad carrier to obtain access to land that the person owns, leases, or operates.[/indent] > (7) A person having written permission from the railroad carrier to go on specified railroad property. > (8) A representative of the Indiana department of transportation while engaged in the performance of official duties. > (9) A representative of the federal Railroad Administration while engaged in the performance of official duties. > (10) A representative of the National Transportation Safety Board while engaged in the performance of official duties.[/indent] > > As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.3. Amended by Acts 1977, > P.L.340, SEC.43; P.L.151-1989, SEC.12; P.L.242-1993, SEC.2; P.L.164-1993, SEC.11; P.L.1-1994, SEC.168; P.L.259-1999, SEC.3. [emphasis added] ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/33 "2007-05-04T23:19:55Z")
So, bottom line: No constitutional violation and no trespass. The jackass with the videocamera is SOL. And I note that one of the comments to the video says the guy filed a suit which was thrown out in March. ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/34 "2007-05-04T23:46:12Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] So, bottom line: No constitutional violation and no trespass. The jackass with the videocamera is SOL. And I note that one of the comments to the video says the guy filed a suit which was thrown out in March. [/QUOTE] That comment also says he was represented in the suit by “New York lawyer Jackie Chiles,” who, IIRC, was a character on _Seinfeld_. Damn. This happened in the county I live in. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/35 "2007-05-04T23:59:20Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] So, bottom line: No constitutional violation and no trespass. The jackass with the videocamera is SOL. And I note that one of the comments to the video says the guy filed a suit which was thrown out in March. [/QUOTE] Was there a railroad on his property? I don’t get your point. What contractual interest did she have? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/36 "2007-05-05T00:28:32Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Was there a railroad on his property? I don’t get your point. What contractual interest did she have? [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > …(c) Subsections (a) and (b) do not apply to the following: > > …(3) A law enforcement officer, firefighter, or emergency response personnel while engaged in the performance of official duties. The health inspector was working in her capacity as a law enforcement officer and was engaged in the performance of her duties, and therefore is not subject to the trespass statute. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/37 "2007-05-05T00:31:35Z")
[QUOTE=2nd Law] That comment also says he was represented in the suit by “New York lawyer Jackie Chiles,” who, IIRC, was a character on _Seinfeld_. [/QUOTE] I think that was just a snarky comment on the type of jackleg lawyer who would have represented him. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/38 "2007-05-05T00:40:08Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] The health inspector was working in her capacity as a law enforcement officer and was engaged in the performance of her duties, and therefore is not subject to the trespass statute. [/QUOTE] When did mounds of dirt require inspecting? Based on the film, She made no statement justifying her actions. “Health Inspector” is not a license to trespass. It requires a reason. That’s where the term “probable cause” comes in. She could just as easily decide your clothes are ratty looking and invade your house. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/39 "2007-05-05T00:54:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Based on the film, She made no statement justifying her actions. So what? You think she was required to make a statement for the benefit of this jackass’s documentary? She had a good reason for the inspection, from what I saw. The guy has a backhoe, mounds of dirt, and some sewer line piping next to a trailer he has apparently moved onto the lot. This screams septic tank installation. Furthermore, if you listen carefully she seems to confirm that she had a telephone informant telling her what was going on. Since this was her second trip to the lot, I think it is safe to presume that she had checked and found that the guy didn’t have a septic permit. > [@Magiver](#): > > Health Inspector" is not a license to trespass. Apparently it _is_, looking at the statute, so long as she is acting within the scope of her duties. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/40 "2007-05-05T01:09:41Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] So what? You think she was required to make a statement for the benefit of this jackass’s documentary? She had a good reason for the inspection, from what I saw. The guy has a backhoe, mounds of dirt, and some sewer line piping next to a trailer he has apparently moved onto the lot. This screams septic tank installation. Furthermore, if you listen carefully she seems to confirm that she had a telephone informant telling her what was going on. Since this was her second trip to the lot, I think it is safe to presume that she had checked and found that the guy didn’t have a septic permit. Apparently it _is_, looking at the statute, so long as she is acting within the scope of her duties. [/QUOTE] He asked her for a reason and she didn’t give one. Yes, absolutely she should have to justify her presence. Otherwise she’s just trolling. I agree a septic tank would be a good reason… for a county engineer to investigate. She walked all over the property taking pictures with no stated purpose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682.md?page=3)