# Are government officials allowed to trespass on your property sans warrant? video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682 "2007-05-03T23:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/41 "2007-05-05T01:23:06Z")
Well, **Magiver** , you seem to have strong **feelings** on the topic. So I suggest you lobby for a change in the Indiana trespass statute. But under the statute as it now reads, she is in the clear. Now I will grant you that her actions were impolitic. Probably she should have gotten a warrant just to forestall this idiot’s moronic ranting and to head off a lawsuit (unfounded though the lawsuit may be). On the other hand, she was dealing with a scofflaw who was determined to install a septic system without a permit, and who was being a jackass about it. Under the circumstances, I wouldn’t have felt obliged to justify myself to him, either. As **plnnr** noted above, a septic system in a geologically inappropriate place is very much the concern of a health inspector. (Think septic tank seepage entering ground water in nearby wells.) ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/42 "2007-05-05T01:50:11Z")
As I recall, you are only entitled to actual damages for the intentional tort of trespass. How was this guy damaged by the government official crossing his property line. Nominal damages at best. That being said, If I worked for the agency involved, I’d go get the broadest search warrant a judge would give me and search every inch of this asshole’s property. Also, that length of perforated pipe lying next to the excavation is a dead giveaway. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/43 "2007-05-05T02:27:26Z")
Perforated pipe is a dead giveaway for what? There’s a couple hundred feet of it buried behind my mom’s house, and no septic system at all. It’s a drain for the gutters. I don’t think someone’s an asshole for not wanting a trespasser on his property, especially one with the ‘If you haven’t got anything to hide’ attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/44 "2007-05-05T02:42:22Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Well, **Magiver** , you seem to have strong **feelings** on the topic. So I suggest you lobby for a change in the Indiana trespass statute. But under the statute as it now reads, she is in the clear. [/QUOTE] Um… You’re the one who called the guy a jackass, an idiot, and a scofflaw. And no, the statute doesn’t read that she is God with a badge. She has to have a REASON. If she had a reason she was obligated to state it when asked. Otherwise she could flash a badge and go anywhere she wants. That is not the case. [QUOTE=spoke-] Now I will grant you that her actions were impolitic. Probably she should have gotten a warrant just to forestall this idiot’s moronic ranting and to head off a lawsuit (unfounded though the lawsuit may be). On the other hand, she was dealing with a scofflaw who was determined to install a septic system without a permit, and who was being a jackass about it. Under the circumstances, I wouldn’t have felt obliged to justify myself to him, either. As **plnnr** noted above, a septic system in a geologically inappropriate place is very much the concern of a health inspector. (Think septic tank seepage entering ground water in nearby wells.) [/QUOTE] Again, there wasn’t a septic tank installed and it’s an engineer’s job to deal with it. You’re extreme dislike for this person has led you to a speculation you can’t back up with fact. She took pictures all over his property. There was no septic tank installed. He may very well have planned on installing one. That’s what the county engineer is for, if and when he actually installs it. There is no requirement for health inspectors to certify holes or mounds of dirt. She had no business being there and she couldn’t justify it when asked. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/45 "2007-05-05T02:54:19Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] And no, the statute doesn’t read that she is God with a badge. She has to have a REASON. If she had a reason she was obligated to state it when asked. Otherwise she could flash a badge and go anywhere she wants. That is not the case. I hate to be cliched, but…_Cite?_ Do you have a statute or case law which supports your **feeling** on this subject? > [@](#): > > Again, there wasn’t a septic tank installed and it’s an engineer’s job to deal with it. _Cite?_ As plnnr said, in Virginia at least, it’s the health inspector’s job. Do you have any reason to believe that’s not so in Indiana? Other than your feelings on the subject? > [@](#): > > You’re extreme dislike for this person has led you to a speculation you can’t back up with fact. She took pictures all over his property. There was no septic tank installed. He may very well have planned on installing one. That’s what the county engineer is for, if and when he actually installs it. There is no requirement for health inspectors to certify holes or mounds of dirt. She had no business being there and she couldn’t justify it when asked. Cite for _any_ of that in Indiana law? Or are you just making it up as you go along? Have you ever built a home with a septic tank? If you had, you’d know that installation of the septic tank requires a permit. _Before_ you install it. And before you can get such a permit, you need a soil test to confirm that the soil will drain properly. Otherwise, you get such delightful phenomena as raw sewage seeping into nearby streams and well water. But lord knows we wouldn’t want to interfere with this clump’s sovereign right to shit in the community’s well water. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/46 "2007-05-05T02:58:02Z")
[QUOTE=NicePete] That being said, If I worked for the agency involved, I’d go get the broadest search warrant a judge would give me and search every inch of this asshole’s property. . [/QUOTE] And that’s not an abuse of power how? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/47 "2007-05-05T03:03:56Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] And no, the statute doesn’t read that she is God with a badge. She has to have a REASON. If she had a reason she was obligated to state it when asked. Otherwise she could flash a badge and go anywhere she wants. That is not the case. I hate to be cliched, but…_Cite?_ Do you have a statute or case law which supports your **feeling** on this subject? > [@](#): > > Again, there wasn’t a septic tank installed and it’s an engineer’s job to deal with it. _Cite?_ As plnnr said, in Virginia at least, it’s the health inspector’s job. Do you have any reason to believe that’s not so in Indiana? Other than your feelings on the subject? > [@](#): > > You’re extreme dislike for this person has led you to a speculation you can’t back up with fact. She took pictures all over his property. There was no septic tank installed. He may very well have planned on installing one. That’s what the county engineer is for, if and when he actually installs it. There is no requirement for health inspectors to certify holes or mounds of dirt. She had no business being there and she couldn’t justify it when asked. Cite for _any_ of that in Indiana law? Or are you just making it up as you go along? Have you ever built a home with a septic tank? If you had, you’d know that installation of the septic tank requires a permit. _Before_ you install it. And before you can get such a permit, you need a soil test to confirm that the soil will drain properly. Otherwise, you get such delightful phenomena as raw sewage seeping into nearby streams and well water. But lord knows we wouldn’t want to interfere with this clump’s sovereign right to shit in the community’s well water. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/48 "2007-05-05T03:15:24Z")
**Magiver** , I hate to be cliched, but…_Cite?_ Do you have a statute or case law which supports any of your pronouncements on this subject? Have you ever built a home with a septic tank? If you had, you’d know that installation of the septic tank requires a permit. _Before_ you install it. And before you can get such a permit, you need a soil test to confirm that the soil will drain properly. Otherwise, you get such delightful phenomena as raw sewage seeping into nearby streams and well water. But lord knows we wouldn’t want to interfere with this clump’s sovereign right to shit in the community’s well water. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/49 "2007-05-05T03:34:21Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] **Magiver** , I hate to be cliched, but…_Cite?_ Do you have a statute or case law which supports any of your pronouncements on this subject? Have you ever built a home with a septic tank? If you had, you’d know that installation of the septic tank requires a permit. _Before_ you install it. And before you can get such a permit, you need a soil test to confirm that the soil will drain properly. Otherwise, you get such delightful phenomena as raw sewage seeping into nearby streams and well water. But lord knows we wouldn’t want to interfere with this clump’s sovereign right to shit in the community’s well water. [/QUOTE] A hole is not a septic system. It’s a hole. And a health inspector doesn’t have the background to certify, advise, or issue permits for septic systems. Again, that’s what a county engineer does. So your conjecture that he was building this system doesn’t warrant a health inspector. It warrants an engineer. And yes, I’ve begun a building project before getting a permit. I did it by digging… a hole. I eventually had the hole certified to become something else, but it was just a hole when I dug it. And I’m not familiar with any case studies that involve hole digging. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/50 "2007-05-05T04:11:10Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] And a health inspector doesn’t have the background to certify, advise, or issue permits for septic systems. [/quote] You know that…_how_? Did you read **plnnr** ’s earlier post on how it’s done in Virginia?: > [@plnnr](#): > > The permitting and inspection of on-site septic systems is under the authority of the Commonwealth of Virginia Department of Health. Do you have any basis for your belief that it’s different in Indiana, or are you making faith-based proclamations? If you contend it’s different in Indiana, show us the relevant code sections to support your _feeling_ on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/51 "2007-05-05T08:06:06Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] You know that…_how_? Did you read **plnnr** ’s earlier post on how it’s done in Virginia?: So all I have to do is quote someone on the board. OK,.I qoute me. I’ll admit I don’t live in Virginia but it would be the first state to my knowledge that regulates septic tanks on a state level. Call me a skeptic but I’ve never, ever ever ever ever dealt with the state on zoning issue. All I have to go on is the fact that I’ve rehabbed houses all over my state of Ohio. But after surfing the net on the subject I’m left with the question: How do yhou know it’s done that way? I can’t find any Virginia Common Wealth certification of septic tanks. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/52 "2007-05-05T12:39:03Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Call me a skeptic but I’ve never, ever ever ever ever dealt with the state on zoning issue. [/quote] This is not a zoning issue. It is a health issue. > [@](#): > > All I have to go on is the fact that I’ve rehabbed houses all over my state of Ohio. _Existing_ houses with _existing_ septic systems, I gather. So I take it you have zero experience with installing a new septic system? > [@](#): > > But after surfing the net on the subject I’m left with the question: How do yhou know it’s done that way? I can’t find any Virginia Common Wealth certification of septic tanks. I’ll let **plnnr** speak for Virginia. (Do you know what he does for a living, by the way? There’s a hint in his name.) Let’s talk about Indiana. In that state, septic systems are within the purview of the Department of Health. [Here are the state statutes.](http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title16/ar41/ch25.html) You can’t miss them. They’re under the heading “ **Chapter 25. _Health_, Sanitation, and Safety: Residential Septic Systems**.” Still not convinced? From Purdue University, here’s a [PDF summary of Indiana’s rules for installation of septic systems](http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/HENV/HENV-11-W.pdf): > [@](#): > > The first step is to request a septic system permit application from your **county health department, the regulatory agent responsible for administering permits in your county**. Many health departments also have information to help guide you through the process. > > Each county’s health department must enforce ISDH Rule 410 IAC 6-8.1. _But he’s just digging a_ _hoooole_! _Can’t he dig his septic system first and then apply for a permit?_ No, and _hell_ no: > [@](#): > > The first (and arguably most important) issue homeowners should consider when planning a new septic system is to determine the best location for the new septic system’s soil absorption field. Selecting this location is critical and **should be determined before any construction activities occur on the site**. > > …Soils on the lot need to be evaluated by an Indiana Registered Soil Scientist, or a technically competent **representative of your county health department**. > > …Ideally, the homeowner, **county health department representative** , and septic system installer/designer should meet the soil scientist on the homeowner’s lot to discuss the soils together. The soil scientist will evaluate the site’s soils and select the best location for the soil absorption field. The soil scientist will prepare a formal soils report, and copies should be sent to the property owner and the **county health department**. > > …Once they receive the soils report, **county health departments evaluate it** and consider a number of factors. The site goes on to describe a number of regulations, including regulations governing _the depth of the hole to be dug_. All regulations to be enforced by the county health department. Now, what were you saying? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/53 "2007-05-05T13:17:10Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Um… You’re the one who called the guy a jackass, an idiot, and a scofflaw. And no, the statute doesn’t read that she is God with a badge. She has to have a REASON. \*\*If she had a reason she was obligated to state it when asked. \*\* [/quote] Not true. Where do you get the idea that she’s obligated to state her reason when asked? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/54 "2007-05-05T13:45:44Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Not true. Where do you get the idea that she’s obligated to state her reason when asked? [/QUOTE] Where do you get the idea someone can show up at your door and enter your house without cause? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/55 "2007-05-05T13:54:32Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Where do you get the idea someone can show up at your door and enter your house without cause? [/QUOTE] Do you have access to some secret tapes the rest of us haven’t seen? Because I didn’t see anyone enter a house. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/56 "2007-05-05T14:29:18Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Now, what were you saying? [/QUOTE] Nothing you posted said he couldn’t dig a hole. All you’ve done is point out the obvious that a septic system requires a permit. He can dig to China and it’s not a septic system. We don’t know what he’s planning on. until he does something with it, it’s just a hole. Same goes for the mounds of dirt. He could dig a row of holes 5’ x 8’ x 6’ and it doesn’t make them graves. It makes them holes. Did it ever occur to you that someone with a backhoe might be in the construction business and knows what he’s doing? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/57 "2007-05-05T14:51:04Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Do you have access to some secret tapes the rest of us haven’t seen? Because I didn’t see anyone enter a house. [/QUOTE] It was an analogous point regarding the act of trespass.. I’m pointing out that the power you’re assigning her would grant her access into a house without cause. I wasn’t referring to HIS house. I was referring to the act. Looking at the consequences of in issue is part of the debating process. Clearly she was on his property after numerous requests to leave. She could have stated a reason for her presence and she didn’t. She violated his privacy, in front of a policeman, with no stated goal, even after she was asked to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/58 "2007-05-05T14:53:12Z")
**Magiver** , I believe you’ve lost track of the OP. The question was whether the health inspecter went beyond the law by going onto the man’s property. Did she violate federal law? Did she violate state law? She did not violate federal law (the 4th Amendment) according to the logic of the case I cited earlier. She did not violate state law (trespass) since (per the Indiana statute) she was a law enforcement officer engaged in performance of her duties. You questioned whether a health inspector has any such enforcement duties, and now I’ve shown you that she does, under Indiana law. She had every right to investigate, and every reason to do so given the mobile home, the backhoe, the mounds of dirt, the perforated pipe, and the phone call from a tipster. And the guy who made the video is a crank who is trying to skirt the law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/59 "2007-05-05T15:00:32Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] It was an analogous point regarding the act of trespass.. I’m pointing out that the power you’re assigning her would grant her access into a house without cause. I wasn’t referring to HIS house. I was referring to the act. Looking at the consequences of in issue is part of the debating process. Clearly she was on his property after numerous requests to leave. She could have stated a reason for her presence and she didn’t. She violated his privacy, in front of a policeman, with no stated goal, even after she was asked to do so. [/QUOTE] The law: (a) doesn’t require a police officer to disclose to a suspect the basis for his probable cause; (b) makes a distinction between houses and fields. Do you care to see cites on thatpoint, or do you simply not care? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682/60 "2007-05-05T15:03:07Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] I’m pointing out that the power you’re assigning her would grant her access into a house without cause. [/QUOTE] Nope. Straw man. Entering a _house_ without cause would violate the 4th amendment. (Did you actually read the case I cited?) It would presumably also violate Indiana constitutional prohibitions on unreasonable searches and seizures. Entering the house might _not_ be a _trespass_ under state law, though, if the agent were carrying out her duties as a law enforcement officer. That doesn’t mean it would be hunky dory. It just means it wouldn’t be a violation of the trespass statute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-government-officials-allowed-to-trespass-on-your-property-sans-warrant-video/402682.md?page=4)