# Are Hardcore PVPers Mentally Ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 4, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824 "2011-07-04T17:33:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/41 "2011-07-05T04:15:46Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > This feels more like a butt-hurt MMO player’s pit thread than someone interested in understanding the joys of ganking the former. Which is precisely what you’d expect someone described by post 9 to say, right? > [@DigitalC](#): > > No they don’t, but pvp rules are always clearly explained. > > Killing you in a pvp game isn’t griefing. And the devs in this kinds of games go for as broad an appeal as they can, they don’t want to lose any subs even from the people who roll on a pvp server then cry when they get killed. It’s not necesarily griefing, but it can be. You come across a guy a similar level to you trying to do quests in the same area you’re in, so you kill him. Not griefing at all - this is actually what non-douches want when they sign up for pvp servers. But far more common is a level 70+ going down to a level 30 or below zone and killing people. Then waiting till they spawn, then killing them again. The level 30 player cannot harm the level 70+ player, they are entirely touchable. And the level 70 player can kill the level 30 player instantly with one button push. There’s no reward for the level 70 player. There’s no challenge. There’s no sportsmanship. There’s no meaningful victory. The only thing you get out of it - THE ONLY THING - is that you’ve caused some other person annoyance and wasted their time. If doing something where the only thing you accomplish is to annoy other people who cannot stop you or fight back is not griefing, what the fuck is? > [@DigitalC](#): > > No, of course not. What’s mentally ill is playing a pvp game then crying when someone kills you. You are missing the ENTIRE point of the game. I’d love to hear what game houses and devs you mean, ganking was allowed and rampant in both WoW and Rift, the only two games i’ve played this year. As per above, if “the entire point” of the game is to kill people who present no challenge to you, and can’t fight back, then it’s only made by the way by the sheer amount of assholes participating. I’ve had some really fun actual world PVP matches where I’ve fought people of similar level while competing to do the same quests in the same area. That can make the experience of doing stuff out in the world more exciting while also letting you fight back, and not just hope that no griefers are out today to make things hard for you. The fact that this is relatively rare, and griefing is relatively common, only speaks to just how many people are douchebags rather than any design intent of the game. > [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Posts like this make griefing sound awesome, I have to say. Hypothetical for me as I’m not a gamer, but such a nerd howl must be music to the ears of real griefers. Why, exactly? Please explain your reasoning in detail, it’s relevant to the thread. > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Not really. It’s the video game version of hazing. No, it’s not. Hazing is done as a way to transition people into acceptance amongst a group. These players aren’t trying to make them “earn” their way into being high level - very often, probably the vast majority of the time, the players with these low level characters already have high level characters. This is simply a consequence-free way to cause aggravation and distress to other human beings, from the safety of a virtual world because while these douchebags would just love to make people miserable wherever they could, they’re too cowardly to do it in real life. > [@DigitalC](#): > > When someone takes your money in monopoly is that causing harm to you? is that lack of empathy? is it immature to think it’s ok to bankrupt my family and taking their properties? You don’t get it, it’s game, absolutely nothing bad happened to you when you got killed. But someone taking your money in monopoly isn’t the right analogy here. That suggests the players are on an even playing ground, playing the same game, either one could win if they played better. Two similarly-leveled players having a chance encounter out in the world while they’re both trying to do something is what would fit in any “playing the game” analogy, not an entirely asymetrical situation where one person could never possibly win against another. The better analogy is what if every 5 minutes Arnold Schwarzenegger walked up to a bunch of 8 year olds playing a board game and kicked the table over? They couldn’t harm him, they’d be at his whim, and he’s not playing with them in any meaningful way. And the only reason he’s doing it is because he likes that it hurts them when he does it. ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/42 "2011-07-05T04:30:48Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The only thing you get out of it - THE ONLY THING - is that you’ve caused some other person annoyance and wasted their time. Not just gaming but in general e.g. people who drive around in pointlessly noisy vehicles - I think somehow they convince themselves that causing annoyance=superiority. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/43 "2011-07-05T05:29:23Z")
It seems to me allowing players two starting location choices would end ganking. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/44 "2011-07-05T15:14:31Z")
It would help, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/45 "2011-07-05T15:17:58Z")
In WoW, there are PVP and PVE servers, on PVE servers you won’t have random world encounter PVP, at least not without volunteering for it, so that’s how they keep it seperately. It does crowd out the reasonable middle position - wanting the fun of chance encounters that make grinding more exciting, but then knowing in reality more often it’s just going to be some 13 year old nerd griefing you. It’d be at least somewhat fixable, too, by simply creating a rule where you can’t open combat against someone say 5+ levels lower than you. But apparently the gankers have enough sway at blizzard that they’ve never tried this. Considering the game has dozens of servers, I don’t know why they never broke off a few using that rule so that gankers can still have their servers and people who want real world PVP can play on the other ones. Worth a try. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/46 "2011-07-05T15:25:41Z")
Years ago I worked for a small company, developing an MMO. The game had been running for a few years at that point- we were really just supporting it and trying to keep it updated (and trying desperately to find a way to make it pay our bills). In our experience, the first players to find abusable bugs were PvPers… and they used those bugs to make life miserable for the non-PvPers. It got so bad that the only way we could find the bugs was to follow the PvP guilds around, invisibly, to see what new griefing tricks they’d found. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/47 "2011-07-05T15:36:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I wouldn’t classify gankers at “hardcore” pvpers, and yes, of course they’re emotionally retarded. PVP is only interesting when each player has some chance and skill matters - a huge amount of the world pvp in WoW is a bunch of guys killing guys 40 levels lower than them when they could just 1 shot the lower player and the lower player would never be able to harm them even if the higher player sat still and did nothing for 5 minutes. They gain nothing except the knowledge that they made someone else’s life more aggravating. It’s pure griefing and a pretty clear demonstration that your life sucks so bad that you resort to something this pathetic to feel better about yourself. > [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Posts like this make griefing sound awesome, I have to say. Hypothetical for me as I’m not a gamer, but such a nerd howl must be music to the ears of real griefers. > > Only drawback seems that you have to be pretty engaged yourself to dish out the grief, like you can’t do it from day one and need to log some hours. So some cognitive dissonance required there. > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Not really. It’s the video game version of hazing. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > No, it’s not. Hazing is done as a way to transition people into acceptance amongst a group. These players aren’t trying to make them “earn” their way into being high level - very often, probably the vast majority of the time, the players with these low level characters already have high level characters. This is simply a consequence-free way to cause aggravation and distress to other human beings, from the safety of a virtual world because while these douchebags would just love to make people miserable wherever they could, they’re too cowardly to do it in real life. When the ones on the receiving end of the aggravation reach that very high level then go aggravate lowbies themselves, that’s the same mentality at work. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/48 "2011-07-05T15:37:39Z")
Then that’s just the bullied becoming bullies, I don’t see how that qualifies as “hazing”, which ultimately is a tool of acceptance and bonding. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/49 "2011-07-05T15:39:55Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > It seems to me allowing players two starting location choices would end ganking. The problem(at least in WoW) isn’t starting locations, the game world is big and you’ll be spending at least 5 days play time all over it on your way to maximum level. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/50 "2011-07-05T15:48:09Z")
@ **SenorBeef** - I have a hazy memory of WOW (or some other popular MMO) at one time having some sort of Dishonor for killing lower levels or NPC’s. @ **Lightnin’** - That’s very interesting. So the game isn’t really the focus for them at all it would seem. Hey, anyone want to work with me on a World PVP Anything Goes MMO? No lore, no questline, just lots of places to hide and 24/7 ganking! ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/51 "2011-07-05T15:48:25Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > In WoW, there are PVP and PVE servers, on PVE servers you won’t have random world encounter PVP, at least not without volunteering for it, so that’s how they keep it seperately. It does crowd out the reasonable middle position - wanting the fun of chance encounters that make grinding more exciting, but then knowing in reality more often it’s just going to be some 13 year old nerd griefing you. > > It’d be at least somewhat fixable, too, by simply creating a rule where you can’t open combat against someone say 5+ levels lower than you. But apparently the gankers have enough sway at blizzard that they’ve never tried this. Considering the game has dozens of servers, I don’t know why they never broke off a few using that rule so that gankers can still have their servers and people who want real world PVP can play on the other ones. Worth a try. On a pre-release MMO forum a few years ago we talked about this, and we realized that, without significant effort, it may be necessary to allow higher level players to attack lower levels. The easiest idea, make some penalty for killing lower levels creates “reverse griefing” where lower levels throw themselves en masse at higher levels to disrupt them (i.e. make it so they can’t do out of combat actions), while simply defending yourself gives you a penalty. Even if you bar all attacking at +/- 5 levels of yourself, then you get problems such as making a “ball” of lower level players so you can’t easily target/find the actual threats (i.e. have 100 level 1s and 5 max level players, it’ll be hard to actually identify and keep your eye on the ones you can attack). Another method is to take a similar “ball” of lower level players and have them disrupt quest NPCs, since NPCs usually can’t talk while fighting you just keep throwing low levels at them and they’re basically fighting forever, preventing higher levels from getting quests AND preventing them from doing anything to stop them. I don’t think you can ever really stop griefing, hell, even if you disallow ALL PvP and quest NPC killing, there’s still the people (hell, on your OWN faction) that get on their mammoth and stand on the NPCs so you can’t click on them, or spawn camp important unique quest spawns (which WoW somewhat fixed with the ability to “multi tap” certain important mobs, but a player who can OHKO it could still in theory cause some trouble). I think it may just be attributable to the [Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory](http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/). > [@Bloodless Turnip](#): > > Hey, anyone want to work with me on a World PVP Anything Goes MMO? No lore, no questline, just lots of places to hide and 24/7 ganking! So… an FPS? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/52 "2011-07-05T15:51:13Z")
There was something along those lines in WoW, for the first few months - maybe in the first few years - but hasn’t been in there for years. There’s no punishment for continually griefing people who can’t fight back at you. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/53 "2011-07-05T15:55:42Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Then that’s just the bullied becoming bullies, I don’t see how that qualifies as “hazing”, which ultimately is a tool of acceptance and bonding. Some 40+ “welcoming” a lowbie into the game by harassment and aggravation then that lowbie at 40+ doing the same thing to another lowbie is hazing in my book. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/54 "2011-07-05T15:57:04Z")
I don’t buy it. Those people never become friends, they don’t accept the player they’re tormenting into their ranks. Hazing is a rite of passage, a way to build a bond with newcomers in your group. This is just griefing. Why you insist on trying to link it to hazing I don’t know, it seems clear as day to me that this is the sort of run of the mill bullying you get with emotional retards and internet anonymity. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/55 "2011-07-05T15:59:23Z")
> [@Bloodless\_Turnip](#): > > Hey, anyone want to work with me on a World PVP Anything Goes MMO? No lore, no questline, just lots of places to hide and 24/7 ganking! > [@Jragon](#): > > So… an FPS? [See also](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_(online_game)) (the wiki seems to indicate the mud is still running, which boggles my mind.) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/56 "2011-07-05T16:01:08Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I don’t buy it. Those people never become friends, they don’t accept the player they’re tormenting into their ranks. Hazing is a rite of passage, a way to build a bond with newcomers in your group. This is just griefing. Why you insist on trying to link it to hazing I don’t know, it seems clear as day to me that this is the sort of run of the mill bullying you get with emotional retards and internet anonymity. I’m going by Webster’s definitions. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/57 "2011-07-05T16:06:13Z")
I’m betting you could do it cheap like Minecraft and that type player wouldn’t even care. 16bit blood and gore. Wow @the [MUD still going](http://geno.org/). Whoa. Okay, so I stand corrected. Some gankers do prefer nice graphics. :] ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/58 "2011-07-05T16:23:22Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > There was something along those lines in WoW, for the first few months - maybe in the first few years - but hasn’t been in there for years. There’s no punishment for continually griefing people who can’t fight back at you. Well, it was in the manual but it was never implemented the way it was described(probably for the reasons in **Jragon** ’s post), you were just penalized for killing low level npcs. And that never worked very well either, the real griefers didn’t really care, but I remember getting the penalty once when the people in my party killed a hostile npc who was a legitimate target for them but not for me because I was a couple of levels higher than everyone else. The really stupid part? This was inside an instanced dungeon, so that particular npc’s life or death could affect no-one outside my party. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/59 "2011-07-05T16:29:26Z")
I just don’t get the “fun” of ganking. Where is the glory in killing somebody that has no real chance to fight back? It’s like stepping on a bug. I want a fair fight. Your guys against our guys, straight up, head to head. We’ll tee it up and see who’s the best today. And if you kick our ass…like Horde does more often than not in my battlegroup…well, ok…we’ll get you next time. /Salute. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824/60 "2011-07-05T16:36:09Z")
@ **Oakminster** - which brings us back to the point of the thread. The mental state of people who get off by disrupting others gameplay for sometimes lengthy periods of time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-hardcore-pvpers-mentally-ill/587824.md?page=4)