# Are homophobic ads OK if they're run by Democrats? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719 "2002-10-10T19:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/61 "2002-10-11T06:22:27Z")
Gay pundit Andrew Sullivan supports the OP. First he explains why he saw the ad as gay-baiting : > [@](#): > > But that doesn’t mean that the ad wasn’t a clear attempt to use homophobia to attack another candidate. I’ve watched the ad now a few times. The music is really central - it sounds like a '70s porn video. The clips show Taylor with limp wrists fussing over a male model. The final shot is Taylor touching up the cosmetics under the guy’s eyes. Please. Acording to Taylor, plenty of such clips exist showing him fussing over a woman. So why did the Dems choose this one? The final sentence was also hardly subtle: “That’s not how we do business here in Montana.” I’m sorry, but this was gay-baiting. Then, Sullivan goes on to deplore the lack of response from Democrats. (BTW Montana Democrats continued to run the ad, even after it was criticized.): > [@](#): > > The real story, then, is how Democrats have responded and will respond. If they do nothing, if they do not condemn the ad, then the next time some know-nothing bigot tries a similar tactic on a Democrat, what are the Dems going to say? He deplores the lack of response from gay-rights orgnizations: > [@](#): > > The locals aren’t much better. According to the AP: > > > [@](#): > > > > Karl Olson, executive director of PRIDE, a Helena gay rights organization, said he believes the ad was an attempt to suggest Taylor is gay. He said he was bothered more by Taylor’s reaction. “To me, what’s more of a problem is that an adult, an intelligent person, is going to flee from that and not just stand up and say, `You know, OK, so I looked like a gay hairdresser. What’s wrong with looking like a gay hairdresser? Let’s get on with the campaign,’” he said. > > This is a transparent attempt to blame the victim. He deplores the lack of response from media: > [@](#): > > If this ad had been run by a Republican against a Democrat, then it would be front page news in the New York Times and the subject of denunciations from gay rights “leaders.” But because it’s a Democratic ad, it’s a non-story. You may disagree with the OP, but it’s not provocation or trolling. It’s the way a lot of observers see things. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/62 "2002-10-11T06:24:17Z")
Link to cite for above post: [http://andrewsullivan.com/index.php?switch=black\_white&dish\_inc=dish\_blog.html](http://andrewsullivan.com/index.php?switch=black_white&dish_inc=dish_blog.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/63 "2002-10-11T07:08:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by minty green_ > **"Supposed"?!? Armey’s comment was on tape! And he fucking lied about it until the tape showed up!** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* Armey never admitted to having intentionally using the term “fag.” \*\* So then by that reasoning, if the Democratic candidate hadn’t intended it as homophibic, then everything’s ok, right? Personally, I think the hair, the suit and the decor make him look like the husband from _Emmanuelle_. As for the guy getting his hair done, I _know_ that guy’s done porn. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/64 "2002-10-11T07:09:51Z")
So, the local gay rights people are bothered more by Taylor’s wussy response to the ad than by the ad itself? “Stand up and fight like a man”, in other words? And so Gay-Pundit-Andrew-Sullivan has a problem with the way the Locals are handling it? Gee, those silly Local People, don’t they know _anything_ about Gay Rights or Gay Pride? Does Gay-Pundit-Andrew-Sullivan have to tell them _everything_? And am I the only one noticing that apparently Gay-Pundit-Andrew-Sullivan firmly believes that any time a man applies cosmetics to another man, that the first guy is definitely gay? Wow, I’ll have to pass this along to the [Hollywood Makeup Artists and Hair Stylists Union, Local 706.](http://www.local706.org/htjl706/htjl706.html) I’m sure they’ll be glad to know that all the males [nominated for Emmys](http://www.local706.org/news/news_whn.html) for makeup this year are actually _gaaaaaay_. > [@](#): > > Makeup > For A Series (Non-Prosthetic) > > Alias • Q & A • ABC • Touchstone Television > Angela Nogaro, Makeup Artist > Diana Brown, Key Makeup Artist > > Buffy The Vampire Slayer • Hell’s Bells • UPN • Mutant > Enemy, Kuzui, Sandollar in association with 20th Century > Fox Television > Todd A. McIntosh, Makeup Department Head > Jay Wejebe, Makeup Artist > Carol Schwartz, Makeup Artist > Bridgette Myre-Ellis, Makeup Artist > > CSI: Crime Scene Investigation • Slaves Of Las Vegas • > CBS • An Alliance Atlantis Production in association with > CBS Productions > Nick Pagliaro, Key Makeup Artist > John Goodwin, Special Effects Makeup > Melanie Levitt, Makeup > > MADtv • MADtv’s 7th Season Premiere • FOX • Girl Group > Company > Jennifer Aspinall, Makeup Department Head > Randy Westgate, Makeup > Julie Purcell, Makeup > Scott Wheeler, Makeup > Stephanie Massie, Makeup > Felicia Linsky, Makeup > Darrell McIntyre, Makeup > > Six Feet Under • Pilot • HBO • The Greenblatt/Janollari > Studios and Actual Size, Inc., in association with HBO > Original Programming > Donna-Lou Henderson, Key Makeup Artist > Justin Henderson, Makeup Artist > June Bracken, Makeup Artist Oooh, Todd and Nick and Randy and Justin, you bad boys, you… And those are just the makeup guys–wait till you hear the list of hairstylists…Michael and Sean and Stephen and, oooh, there’s another Randy, that must be a “gay” name… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/65 "2002-10-11T13:40:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sublight \* > So then by that reasoning, if the Democratic candidate hadn’t intended it as homophibic, then everything’s ok, right? **Sublight** , the specific point I was addressing was the use of “supposed.” I personally don’t think Armey’s statement is OK and I don’t believe his excuse. However, he never acknowledged intentionally using a slur, and there’s no way to prove what was in his mind, so I think the use of the modifier was not inappropriate. Whether that Montana ad was homophobic is in the eye of the viewer. Here’s one salty reaction: > [@](#): > > I think the guy should be pre-emptively impeached for the leisure suit they show him wearing, but ultimately I have to agree; it reeks homophobic to me. The footage in question has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the ad, which purports to be about something he did wrong while he was the proprietor of a beauty school 20 years ago. Not that the ad dwells on whatever it was he did, because too much chatter would distract from the footage of a younger, hipper Senate candidate massaging another man’s face and applying powder with a pink powder puff. They couldn’t have made their message any clearer without, say, a shockwave of him prancing around in a maribou robe, singing excerpts from Judy Garland’s greatest hits while waving a sign that says “Queer as a $3 bill!” [http://janegalt.net/2002\_10\_06\_janegalt\_archive.html#85549437](http://janegalt.net/2002_10_06_janegalt_archive.html#85549437) **Duck Duck Goose** , I appreciate your post. However, it confounds _noticing_ that a malicious stereotype has been used with _endorsing_ the malicious sterereotype. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/66 "2002-10-11T14:02:44Z")
By my count, it will take two more reminders that Dick Armey has _at least twice_ slurred Barney Frank on the basis of his sexual orientation before december will acknowledge the possibility that Armey is, ya know, a little bit _hostile_ towards gays. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/67 "2002-10-11T14:08:02Z")
I don’t know about the ad, I had trouble watching because the background music kept making me want to get up and shake, shake, shake… shake my booty! ---
**Author:** ![CLedet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@CLedet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLedet)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/68 "2002-10-11T14:37:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*(snip)… the background music kept making me want to get up and shake, shake, shake… shake my booty! \*\* Finally! Proof that the spot is gay! > [@](#): > > Presumably? Did or didn’t it use homophobic pictures? **IAS** did you read the articles and view the commercial? As silly as it looks now the offending commercial was for a salon/school he owned in the early 80’s. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/69 "2002-10-11T14:53:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*By my count, it will take two more reminders that Dick Armey has _at least twice_ slurred Barney Frank on the basis of his sexual orientation before december will acknowledge the possibility that Armey is, ya know, a little bit _hostile_ towards gays. \*\* 😕 IN the post right above yours I wrote, > [@](#): > > I personally don’t think Armey’s statement is OK and I don’t believe his excuse. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/70 "2002-10-11T15:02:27Z")
Is anyone else amused to find **december** (who has chastised various groups for taking offense when none or little was offered) relying on the words of “Gay pundit Andrew Sullivan” to decide when something is offensive? In any other context, would we not expect to find **december** shaking his head at the foolishness of Mr. Sullivan for trying to make something of nothing, simply to further an agenda? I guess principled stands are only what we expect of other people. ---
**Author:** ![IndependentVoter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@IndependentVoter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IndependentVoter)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/71 "2002-10-11T15:02:32Z")
\*\*You haven’t let me down! Look at this wonderful list of excuses. \*\* If this post really sums up what you think those posters said, then you are beyond help. Unlike this ad, their posts are written RIGHT HERE on this page. It just takes a second to scroll back and forth to check things out. You either have a reading comprehension probem or are blinded by your agenda. Either way, I don’t need to bother checking out the commercial after seeing how bad you are at interpreting things. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/72 "2002-10-11T15:58:31Z")
Personally, I think this ad is very telling. The description of the ad in no way screams “homophobia” at me: the gold chain, hairy chest look is one I associate with sleazy straightboys, not with gay men. But it’s fascinating how **some** conservatives are so cynical that they’re willing to find some special-interest group willing to support them in a bizarre case like this. I guarandamntee you that **December** has never quoted a gay pundit who was criticizing a Republican. No. For some conservatives, gay rights and similar issues are no more than tools to be used callously and deceptively in partisan bickering. Fascinating point, **December**! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/73 "2002-10-11T16:01:01Z")
I Am Not A Moderator. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/74 "2002-10-11T16:27:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*You may disagree with the OP, but it’s not provocation or trolling. It’s the way a lot of observers see things. \*\* The assertion “This ad = homophobic” is NOT adequately proven. Do THAT and then we’ll talk about if it’s ok for certain groups to be homophobic and if it’s wrong for others. Nothing further needs to be added until someone PROVES this ad was meant to, AND EFFECTIVE AT, invoking homophobic responses in a significant number of the viewers. Then the debate becomes, “Was it despicable to use these tactics to undermine your opponent?”(note this has no partisan slant) Still not a very interesting question. You’ll probably see mostly “yes” responses with a few people who believe anything is fair game in a political race. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/75 "2002-10-11T16:51:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **The description of the ad in no way screams “homophobia” at me: the gold chain, hairy chest look is one I associate with sleazy straightboys, not with gay men.** [homophobic bigot] But, but, but… he has a BEARD! You can’t be gay if you have a BEARD! Damn Democrats sending mixed messages! Burn in hell![/homophobic bigot] Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/76 "2002-10-11T17:46:41Z")
When Mr. Sullivan’s parents decided to name him “Gay Pundit,” they were pretty much locking in his future career. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/77 "2002-10-11T18:34:12Z")
Yea, and poor Dick Armey never had a chance. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/78 "2002-10-11T19:22:42Z")
Others can judge the credibility of Gay-Pundit Sullivan but I would like to point out that Democratic-Blogger Kaus is not a Democrat in any meaningful sense of the world. If you scroll down the link that December provides you will see that he appears to spend most of his energy bashing the NY Times, Paul Krugman and the Democrats. BTW this thread has provided me some of my best laughs in ages. In addition to the ad itself, there was the Senate candidate who turned blue. And somehow I had never realized till now what a truly unfortunate name Dick Armey has. Not that the joker doesn’t deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/79 "2002-10-11T20:23:39Z")
Please, folks, let’s show some respect and use his full name: Dick “Like A Baby’s” Armey. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719/80 "2002-10-11T20:50:52Z")
DanielWithrow makes the same point I was aiming at: “I guarandamntee you that December has never quoted a gay pundit who was criticizing a Republican . . . . For some conservatives, gay rights and similar issues are no more than tools to be used callously and deceptively in partisan bickering.” I’d simply alter that statement about “some conservatives” and “similar issues” to make it reciprocal, and say that politicans in general have a hard time not appearing cynical when they criticize their opponents for behavior or stances that they themselves would not really oppose. Unless you’re talking about Jon Kyl or Andrew Sullivan, a self-proclaimed conservative asking us to believe that he is outraged by ‘homophobia’ is just not convincing; is elimination of homophobia really at the top of most conservatives’ agenda (again, note that I am not opining on whether it should or shouldn’t be – just that it probably ranks below tax cuts, etc. for the rank and file, and I would certainly WAG for most Montana GOPers)? Does Mr. Taylor have a track record we haven’t heard of of ever mentioning the word “homophobia” before yesterday? My original suggestion to December’s approach was that it hurts, not helps, GOP credibility to take \ or choose \ for attacking perceived Dem. hypocrisy. I’m still wondering what’s the more politically-consistent, credible way to attach such hypocrisy. My interest in this question is, as I note, not partisan (at the moment anyhow): I thought it was equally a non-starter tactically for Dems. to attack GWB for alleged espionage shortcomings pre 9/11, as there is almost no one in the world up till now who has accused the Bush family (certainly Bush pere) or Republicans of insufficient enthusiasm for spying and cloak-and-dagger activities, and its been the Dems. who’ve over the years questioned such clandestine activity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-homophobic-ads-ok-if-theyre-run-by-democrats/131719.md?page=5)