# Are Human Rights Just an Outgrowth of Christian Culture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2015, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539 "2015-09-17T05:18:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/81 "2015-09-30T01:24:30Z")
Again, it’s a poetic expression. The full sentiment is along the lines of "for the past 500 or so years, the Western World, at least, has been slowly building a world based on the ideals of freedom, liberty and justice. It’s been a rocky road, but we currently live in a world where slavery for the first time is nearly extinct, where more women have more options than ever, where life expectancies are off the charts…and the future only looks brighter and brighter. And you are standing against that progress. Future generations— maybe not all future generations until the end of time–but definitely future generations within the current intellectual tradition, which does seem pretty well established, will view you with scorn." ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/82 "2015-09-30T01:27:45Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You still say that X is on the wrong side of history because it is. . . . Pseudo naivete is not your strong suit. I say that X is on the wrong side of history because X has been wiped off the surface of the earth. But you won’t be troubled to deal with reality, so drop it, as it’s irrelevant anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/83 "2015-09-30T02:30:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Again, it’s a poetic expression. > > The full sentiment is along the lines of "for the past 500 or so years, the Western World, at least, has been slowly building a world based on the ideals of freedom, liberty and justice. It’s been a rocky road, but we currently live in a world where slavery for the first time is nearly extinct, where more women have more options than ever, where life expectancies are off the charts…and the future only looks brighter and brighter. I, mostly, agree with the paragraph, but I don’t accept the “poetic expression” excuse > [@](#): > > And you are standing against that progress. I’m not that big to stand in the way of progress. You’re not that big to help progress > [@](#): > > Future generations— maybe not all future generations until the end of time–but definitely future generations within the current intellectual tradition, which does seem pretty well established, will view you with scorn." You drank too much of the poetic stuff. You cannot have imagined four months ago that European countries would be erecting fences or that Schengen could disappear in a snap of the fingers. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Pseudo naivete is not your strong suit. I say that X is on the wrong side of history because X has been wiped off the surface of the earth. But you won’t be troubled to deal with reality, so drop it, as it’s irrelevant anyway. What has been wiped off the surface of the earth? Pray tell. Slavery? Opression? Inequality? Lack of access to clean water? Domestic violence? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/84 "2015-09-30T03:44:31Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > . . . What has been wiped off the surface of the earth? Pray tell. . . . Carthage, Biafra, Nazi Germany, yoo hoo? Are you even pretending to read this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/85 "2015-10-02T16:35:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Carthage, Biafra, Nazi Germany, yoo hoo? Are you even pretending to read this thread? Wow, just wow. Do your not-quite-on-topic examples mean that the fact that they were wiped it was becuase they were on the “wrong” side of history? Is non-wiped stuff on the right side? You dodged, possibly for lack or arguments, the real crux. Nazi Germany may be ended, but oppression, racism, and genocide (you know, the real issues) are alive and kicking. I can’t quite figure out what Carthage did to be on the wrong side of history, unless being destroyed without excuse shows it. Was destroying Carthage the moral thing to do? You lump into tRSoH two completely different things. 1. Things you find morally/ethically wrong that no longer happen, e.g. slavery in the US. 2. Things which have no clear moral right/wrong but htat happened. They are still ex post facto considerations. It’s like knowing the winning nubers of the lottery the day after the draw. How can one divine tRSoH ex ante facto? How does one separate preferred outcomes and tRSoH? Useless, self-serving, own-flag-waving concept for lazy people who can win witrh arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/86 "2015-10-02T16:44:45Z")
CORRECTION Useless, self-serving, own-flag-waving concept for lazy people who can´t win with arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/87 "2015-10-02T16:56:14Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > How can one know, _ex ante facto_, which side history is on? con·science ˈkän(t)SHəns/ noun an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one’s behavior. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/88 "2015-10-02T16:57:37Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > CORRECTION > Useless, self-serving, own-flag-waving concept for lazy people who can´t win with arguments. Kind of like making a huge deal out of a perfectly understandable idiom? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/89 "2015-10-02T19:05:03Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > con·science > ˈkän(t)SHəns/ > noun > an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one’s behavior. Whose conscience? Mine that says abortion is killing innocent babies? In the end, it only proves my point that tRSoH means: whatever the hell I think is right. > [@andros](#): > > Kind of like making a huge deal out of a perfectly understandable idiom? Understandable? Definitely. However, accepting its use means accepting the other’s position as axiomatically true; no really good in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/90 "2015-10-02T19:25:37Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Whose conscience? Mine that says abortion is killing innocent babies? > In the end, it only proves my point that tRSoH means: whatever the hell I think is right. > > Understandable? Definitely. However, accepting its use means accepting the other’s position as axiomatically true; no really good in a debate. That is easily the most pedantic thing I’ve seen this week. Kudos. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/91 "2015-10-02T20:01:42Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Kind of like making a huge deal out of a perfectly understandable idiom? She’s on the wrong side of rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/92 "2015-10-03T07:54:24Z")
I do actually disagree about how people use “the wrong side of history,” but, honestly, this is a distraction. It’s just a semantic argument. You may disagree with it, **Aji** , but you understand what is meant. So argue that, not the words. The real problem is that Christianity has been on both sides of history. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the question. The question is whether our ideas of human rights are inherently linked with Christianity. And I agree that they are. This is not to say that Christianity was always on the side of angels. But that our ideas of human rights came about because of Christian ideas. It provided what was historically the overarching moral framework of Western Culture for years. Yes, we would also borrow from Ancient Greece, but that more informed our scientific culture. Freedom of religion as we understand it is a Christian idea. It doesn’t take the Eastern form of different ideas all having value. It takes the Western idea of tolerance: leave me alone, and I’ll leave you alone. And it came about due to fears of Christian sects, which themselves came about due to the Protestant Revolution (which is also why the U.S. exists, BTW.) You just can’t expect something with as large an influence as Christianity not to have informed our morality, and thus our ideas of human rights. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/93 "2015-10-03T20:02:10Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, we would also borrow from Ancient Greece, but that more informed our scientific culture. > > Freedom of religion as we understand it is a Christian idea. It doesn’t take the Eastern form of different ideas all having value. It takes the Western idea of tolerance: leave me alone, and I’ll leave you alone. Not sure I would say that in such absolute terms. History shows that other cultures and people of faith that were not Christian in the past also arrived to the idea of tolerance to other faiths. > **[Religion in the Mongol Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Mongol_Empire)** > > The Mongols were highly tolerant of most religions during the early Mongol Empire, and typically sponsored several at the same time. At the time of Genghis Khan in the 13th century, virtually every religion had found converts, from Buddhism to Eastern Christianity and Manichaeanism to Islam. To avoid strife, Genghis Khan set up an institution that ensured complete religious freedom, though he himself was a Tengrist. Under his administration, all religious leaders were exempt from taxation, and fr... > [@](#): > > Mongols were highly tolerant of most religions during the early Mongol Empire, and typically sponsored several at the same time. At the time of Genghis Khan in the 13th century, virtually every religion had found converts, from Buddhism to Christianity and Manichaeanism to Islam. To avoid strife, Genghis Khan set up an institution that ensured complete religious freedom, though he himself was a shamanist. Under his administration, all religious leaders were exempt from taxation, and from public service.[1] Mongol emperors were known for organizing competitions of religious debates among clerics, and these would draw large audiences. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539/94 "2015-10-03T20:12:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The real problem is that Christianity has been on both sides of history. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the question. The question is whether our ideas of human rights are inherently linked with Christianity. And I agree that they are. Except that it is not. Christianity may have a lot to say about charity and compassion but it has almost nothing to say about human rights, and in the few cases that it does, ie women and homosexuality, the position is decidedly anti human rights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-human-rights-just-an-outgrowth-of-christian-culture/731539.md?page=4)