# Are humans great apes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2000, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722 "2000-03-11T17:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/1 "2000-03-11T17:05:00Z")
Chimps, Bonobos, Gorillas, and Orangutans have traditionally been placed in a separate taxonomic family from humans – the reason being that humans have an upright walking stance and none of the other Great Apes do. [B}However,\*\* according to the [Tree of Life]([http://phylogeny.arizona.edu/tree/eukaryotes/animals/chordata/mammalia/primates/hominidae/hominidae.html](http://phylogeny.arizona.edu/tree/eukaryotes/animals/chordata/mammalia/primates/hominidae/hominidae.html)) webpage – and again according to the [Lycos Taxonomy Webpage](http://dir.hotbot.lycos.com/Science/Biology/Taxonomy/Taxonomy_Map/Animalia/Chordata/Mammalia/Primates/Hominidae/) – chimps, bonobos, orangutans, and gorillas are **all** classified as part of the family _Hominidae,_ along with us humans! When did this change come about? Was it due to the fact that humans have more in common genetically with chimps and gorillas than orangutans do with chimps and gorillas? **DO** we have more genes in common with chimps and gorillas than oragutans do? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/2 "2000-03-11T17:07:00Z")
And more importantly, does this mean we can **finally** start saying “humans evolved from apes”? ---
**Author:** ![Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nu_Vo_Da_Da)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/3 "2000-03-12T06:16:00Z")
“Great” apes? Hardly, mediocre at best as far as I’m concerned. However I would think that the reason that the “great apes” were placed into a different taxonomic family had less to do with rational genetic distinctions and more to do with “we’re not monkeys”. If it is true that we have more in common genetically with chimps than do orangutans, then we probably do qualify as great apes. (And sorry tracer, but we can’t really say that. At least not any of the apes that exist nowadays.) ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/4 "2000-03-12T06:37:00Z")
If we evolved from apes, how come we still have apes? 🙂 * * * Patrick Ashley ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Edmund Burke ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/5 "2000-03-11T19:40:00Z")
I wrote: > [@](#): > > does this mean we can finally start saying “humans evolved from apes”? To which Nu Vo Da Da replied: > [@](#): > > (And sorry tracer, but we can’t really say that. At least not any of the apes that exist nowadays.) What I meant was, if we and chimps are now considered members of the family _Hominidae_, it would most likely mean that the most recent common ancestor of ourselves and chimps would also be a member of the family _Hominidae_ – and, thus, a great ape. Wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/6 "2000-03-11T20:23:00Z")
Pashley asked: > [@](#): > > If we evolved from apes, how come we still have apes? [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mevolution.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mevolution.html) ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/7 "2000-03-11T20:38:00Z")
Aw, don’t worry about it David, the 🙂 at the end of pashley’s post meant he was just pullin’ your leg. (I hope.) ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/8 "2000-03-11T20:54:00Z")
Had I not seen his other posts on related subjects, I would have guessed that to be true, Tracer. But with his other creationist posts, I figured he was probably serious, and just threw in the smiley as more of a “shit-eating grin” type of thing – you know, as if he had asked the best question in the world and was smiling 'cus he was proud of it. Maybe I’m wrong and you’re right, but I’ll wait to see what he has to say about it. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/9 "2000-03-11T21:34:00Z")
David B: Man, you hate me don’t cha? Yeah, it was sort of tongue-in-cheek and sorta “Hey, evolutionists, what’s up with this?” The “link” (pun intended) was entertaining. * * * Patrick Ashley ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Edmund Burke ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/10 "2000-03-11T21:38:00Z")
No, I don’t hate you. I just wonder why you’re on a message board dedicated to fighting ignorance when you seem dedicated to propagating it. So, now that you have your answer to the “what’s up with that” part of your question, do you have any comments, other than that it was “entertaining” (whatever that is supposed to mean in this context)? * * * Ignorance is Bliss. Reality is Better. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/11 "2000-03-11T22:09:00Z")
David B: > [@](#): > > “No, I don’t hate you. I just wonder why you’re on a message board dedicated to fighting ignorance when you seem dedicated to propagating it.” Yes, I think you hate anyone that carries a religious belief…just look at your posts. And of course, if I have a differing opinion, I’m “ignorant”. Lovely. * * * Patrick Ashley ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Edmund Burke ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/12 "2000-03-11T22:13:00Z")
You can “think” anything you like. But around here, you’ll be asked to prove it. So prove that my posts show I “hate anyone that carries a religious belief.” And I never said you are ignorant because you have a different opinion. You’re spreading ignorance by making false statements about creationism and evolution. Opinion doesn’t come into it. Reality does. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/13 "2000-03-11T22:14:00Z")
Oh, and we have yet _another_ example of you avoiding the issues at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/14 "2000-03-11T23:06:00Z")
Just another great debate! And David takes another hook! * * * Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/15 "2000-03-11T23:25:00Z")
I hate to have to hijack this short thread back to the OP, but: As recently as 6 months ago, that Lycos Taxonomy webpage I linked to in the OP said that Chimps, Bonobos, Gorillas, and Orangutans were **NOT** in the family _Hominidae_. Other posters here in Great Debates even confirmed this at the time. Now, the Lycos page says they are. Furthermore, there is at least one other webpage supporting this reclassification. I really am curious: When did this change come about? Is it now “mainstream canon” amongst taxonomists, or is it just a new hypothetical “alternative” family tree for the great apes? How much resistance to this new family tree is there within the zoological community? And am I blowing smoke out my ass when I say that orangutans have fewer genes in common with gorillas and chimps than humans do? ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/16 "2000-03-12T02:26:00Z")
tracer- sorry I don’t have a citation handy, but I definitely recall reading in several different sources over the last few years that humans, chimps, bonobos and gorillas are all closer to each other genetically than any of them are to orangs. Not only that, but humans, chimps and bonobos are closer genetically to each other than any of them are to gorillas. In fact the extreme genetic closeness between regular chimps, bonobos (pygmy chimps) and humans was the reason Jared Diamond titled his book on human evolution “The Third Chimpanzee”. ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/17 "2000-03-12T03:49:00Z")
First a question: what are the lesser apes, if any? I mean, the original list of great apes reads like my whole list of apes, minus the gibbons. Are gibbons the only lesser apes? Second, I’ll just point out that my Random House College Dictionary defines ape as “a tailless monkey, or a monkey with a very short tail”. So I can’t see what humans could be evolved from, other than apes. Unless their tails dropped off at the same instant they became humans. Not likely. I’d say Australopithecus africanus is definitely an ape, even etymologically (Australopithecus = Southern ape). I just had to get my two bits in, that there is no reason to construe “ape” as “non-extinct ape” and no reason to construe “extinct ape” as a contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/18 "2000-03-12T05:14:00Z")
What Boris said. In his last paragraph, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/19 "2000-03-14T04:33:00Z")
Ah, here’s what I was looking for. According to [This Link](http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/courses/121/primatology/taxonomy.html) to a webpage from the University of Manitoba, humans – and **only** humans – are classified as being in the family _Hominidae_, while chimps, bonobos, gorillas, and even orangutans are classified as being in the family _Pongidae_. I **knew** I didn’t imagine seeing a different taxonomy out there! Note that this earlier (I assume) taxonomy classifies gibbons as belonging to the family _Hylobatidae_, and ALL great apes and humans as belonging to the superfamily _Hominoidia_. The other 2 webpages in my OP, and [This 3rd one](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Taxonomy/wgetorg?id=9526&lvl=3) which I just found, also put gibbons in the family _Hylobatidae_ but eliminate the superfamily tier entirely, placing them all together with old-world monkeys into the infraorder _Catarrhini_. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722/20 "2000-03-14T08:27:00Z")
I always thought of myself as a mediocre ape. * * * Having an open mind means you put out a welcome mat and answer the door politely. It does not mean leaving the door open and with a sign saying nobody’s home [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-great-apes/17722.md?page=2)