# Are humans meat eaters or vegetarians by nature? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 4, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326 "2008-07-04T22:24:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![telecommunications](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed8c4c/32.png) [@telecommunications](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/telecommunications)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/61 "2008-07-06T16:26:17Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] From Richard Dawkins’ _River out of Eden:_ > [@](#): > > The desire to see purpose everywhere is a natural one in an animal that lives surrounded by machines, works of art, tools and other designed artifacts; an animal, moreover, whose waking thoughts are dominated by its own personal goals…Our pagan forebears would have asked the same question about thunder, eclipses, rocks and streams. Today we pride ourselves on having shaken off such primitive animism. If a rock in a stream happens to serve as a convenient steppingstone, we regard its usefulness as an accidental bonus, not a true purpose. [/QUOTE] Why is being surrounded by machines, works of art, etc. a criteria for animism? Stupid idea. Whoever says the waking thoughts of our pagan forebears were dominated by its own personal goals is dominated by stupid ideas and it’s probably he that has succumbed to primitive animism. Anyone who thinks a rock in an opportune location in a stream is evidence of that rock’s ultimate purpose has got to be hallucinating, and anyone who thinks our forebears thought like that has even inferior mental powers. I think Smith is 100% correct and Dawkins the philosophizer. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/62 "2008-07-06T16:45:46Z")
Oy, I don’t even know why I’m trying. Look, aside from humans, I live with two carnivores. Unequivocal carnivores of the feline variety. You want to know how I know they’re carnivores? When I offer them plant matter (aside from catnip), they sniff it and walk away. Plants don’t smell like food to them. If they’re silly enough to take a bite, they spit it out and walk away. I’ve owned omnivores, too. Canines, to be more specific. You know what they won’t eat? Nothing. They’ll eat just about anything you toss at them, because they can. Box turtles? Eat meat and plant matter. Omnivores. Guinea pigs? Won’t eat the meat. Will eat plants. Herbivores. Snakes? Won’t eat the plants. Will eat mice. Carnivores. Humans? Just like dogs, they’ll eat anything. Meat tastes good, vegetables taste good, grains taste good. Omnivores. This ain’t rocket surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/63 "2008-07-06T16:48:52Z")
I don’t understand the “purpose” arguments. A human eats meat and vegetables. That human lives to be 70+. This pattern is repeated by millions of other humans. How is a meat-and-vegetable diet contra-indicated? ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/64 "2008-07-06T17:08:45Z")
**Telecom** , the first time you quoted a movie character, I thought you were just goofin’ around. If you’re actually presenting the half-baked philosophy (or maybe entirely baked, since it sounds like a stoner talking, without the long pauses) of a stupid movie as support for your argument, then how about going back to Plato’s cave? (That would _also_ have little or nothing to do with your OP, but at least it would be educational.) You could make a good argument that the change in diet resulting from the invention of agriculture hasn’t been entirely good, and that we should probably eat more vegetables and fruit, and less meat. ---
**Author:** ![telecommunications](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed8c4c/32.png) [@telecommunications](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/telecommunications)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/65 "2008-07-06T17:48:21Z")
Agent Smith: Suffice it to say that humans aren’t omnivores by the fact that they are eating everything, because they /don’t/ eat everything, Mr. Whynot. But this is not what I’m here to discuss with you. And since you seem to be unaware of why you are trying to post in this thread, it would seem that your purpose is no purpose at all. But, as you well know, appearances can be deceiving, which brings me back to the reason why we’re here. We’re not here because we’re free. We’re here because we’re not free. We are compelled to stay by the insatiable drive to discover the real purpose of living. There is no escaping reason; no denying purpose. Because as we both know, without purpose, you would not post here. Bryan Ekers and Baldwin, I see now the futility of convincing the people here of the fact that humans belong in the family _Hominidae_. The people in their chauvinistic bout of insanity will continue to debase my brilliant movie quotes for a long time to come, nonetheless. It is inevitable. I fear I have somehow been tainted by this supposed peak of human civilization. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/66 "2008-07-06T17:55:12Z")
[QUOTE=telecommunications] I see now the futility of convincing the people here of the fact that humans belong in the family _Hominidae_. [/QUOTE] Don’t see the point of this bit. Don’t see how it’s part of the debate. Or perhaps I missed the movie from which the quote is derived. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/67 "2008-07-06T18:03:21Z")
[QUOTE=telecommunications] Agent Smith: Suffice it to say that humans aren’t omnivores by the fact that they are eating everything, because they /don’t/ eat everything, Mr. Whynot. But this is not what I’m here to discuss with you. And since you seem to be unaware of why you are trying to post in this thread, it would seem that your purpose is no purpose at all. But, as you well know, appearances can be deceiving, which brings me back to the reason why we’re here. We’re not here because we’re free. We’re here because we’re not free. We are compelled to stay by the insatiable drive to discover the real purpose of living. There is no escaping reason; no denying purpose. Because as we both know, without purpose, you would not post here. [/quote] Yeah, but didn’t Smith get hit by a train at some point? I mean, if Socrates had been hit by a train, it wouldn’t matter what philosophies he came up with - everyone would just remember him as “that guy that got hit by a train.” ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/68 "2008-07-06T18:32:19Z")
Wow, i feel like reading this is killing my brain cells ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/69 "2008-07-06T18:44:30Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] Wow, i feel like reading this is killing my brain cells [/QUOTE] Well, take the blue pill and then you can believe whatever you want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/70 "2008-07-06T20:10:12Z")
[QUOTE=telecommunications] Bryan Ekers and Baldwin, I see now the futility of convincing the people here of the fact that humans belong in the family _Hominidae_. [/QUOTE] And the subfamily _Homininae_. Which sounds a lot like hominy, which is a delicious corn-based food. Sure you don’t want to reconsider that stuff about grains? Oh, and if you come anywhere close to making a point, for God’s sake go ahead and do it. ETA: I saw a photo of a chimp eating half a monkey. I thought, “Gee, we really are close relatives.” ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/71 "2008-07-06T21:09:38Z")
Let me just give you a bit of advice here **telecommunications** , Dopers (what we call ourselves) aren’t very fond of your particular brand of bullshit. We especially don’t take kindly to whimsy in arguments about fact. Your stupid Agent Smith schtick is probably the least productive method of winning an argument that I’ve ever seen. Why? Because it is apparent that you feel that the Matrix had some real profound message. I thought it was an okay movie, and I probably thought it was pretty profound… when I was 15. Since then I’ve grown to have a more complex worldview tempered by my experiences. So that’s why you’re getting such a negative reaction. Fuck, the worst part is that, that movie is damn near ten years old. Couldn’t you pick something more current? The way it works here, is we make arguments based on provable facts. Your facts are pretty weak and the website you use to back your claims is also suspect. Finally with regards to the idea that humans are really herbivores? That’s laughable. If the list of similarities are actually true (they seem mostly bullshit to me dogs are omnivores yet have many characteristics of carnivores) what difference does it make anyway? The idea that eating meat is something that we forced ourselves to do is a joke. ---
**Author:** ![telecommunications](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed8c4c/32.png) [@telecommunications](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/telecommunications)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/72 "2008-07-06T21:34:19Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] Let me just give you a bit of advice here **telecommunications** , Dopers (what we call ourselves) aren’t very fond of your particular brand of bullshit. We especially don’t take kindly to whimsy in arguments about fact. Your stupid Agent Smith schtick is probably the least productive method of winning an argument that I’ve ever seen. Why? Because it is apparent that you feel that the Matrix had some real profound message. I thought it was an okay movie, and I probably thought it was pretty profound… when I was 15. Since then I’ve grown to have a more complex worldview tempered by my experiences. So that’s why you’re getting such a negative reaction. Fuck, the worst part is that, that movie is damn near ten years old. Couldn’t you pick something more current? The way it works here, is we make arguments based on provable facts. Your facts are pretty weak and the website you use to back your claims is also suspect. Finally with regards to the idea that humans are really herbivores? That’s laughable. If the list of similarities are actually true (they seem mostly bullshit to me dogs are omnivores yet have many characteristics of carnivores) what difference does it make anyway? The idea that eating meat is something that we forced ourselves to do is a joke. [/QUOTE] you don’t speak for all dopers i hope, but i’m ready for anything from this place. and all i’ll say is that i didn’t say humans are herbivores, but that’s the sort of misinterpretation i’ve been getting in every single response i’ve had and to be expected. bye to this board. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/73 "2008-07-06T21:38:21Z")
[QUOTE=telecommunications] and all i’ll say is that i didn’t say humans are herbivores, but that’s the sort of misinterpretation i’ve been getting in every single response i’ve had and to be expected. bye to this board. [/QUOTE] What ARE you saying, if you can clarify it in 50 words or fewer, assuming you stick around? I don’t need a detailed explanation, just a premise. No movie quotes, please. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/74 "2008-07-06T22:44:48Z")
[QUOTE=telecommunications] and all i’ll say is that i didn’t say humans are herbivores [/QUOTE] Yes you did. The fact that you also tried to redefine “herbivore” to mean something that it doesn’t mean doesn’t change that. By the way, “fruititarian” describes human beings who try to subsist on an unnatural all-fruit diet. Animals that naturally eat fruit are called “frugivores”. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/75 "2008-07-07T00:03:07Z")
> [@fruitarian web site](#): > > The easiest way to understand what our true needs for protein are is to consider the human baby. Protein is used for construction and maintenance of tissue; it is not used for energy, except under extreme emergency conditions. The human infant is growing new tissue at the most rapid rate of its entire life; therefore, its protein needs are at the maximum of its entire life! What does Nature provide for its protein needs?? Human milk is a liquid with a protein content of ~1%. Yes, 1% of our total diet is enough protein to support the most rapid growth rate, and the highest protein needs of our entire life! Upon reaching adult size, protein intake is necessary only to support maintenance, not additional growth; therefore, adult protein needs are even less! In fact, current RDA’s indicate that the adult human needs ~1/3 of the protein of the infant; thus, the adult needs 1/3% of its overall diet as protein. This can be adequately supplied with fruits and vegetables, as shown in the chart below, without resorting to concentrated sources: nuts/seeds, “seed cheese”, beans, tofu, miso, “texturized vegetable protein” (TVP), etc. I’m not sure what this healthy fruitarian diet is you’re talking about. I’d be hard pressed to invent one, and the [sample fruitarian diet](http://ecologos.org/text/RawDayxl97.zip) from your friend’s web site, isn’t. It includes quite a few vegetables and gets about 40% of it’s protein from evil, concentrated-protein almonds. It’s also completely lacking in B[sub]12[/sub]; with a few weird exceptions like tempeh–and no one’s going to convince me our cave man ancestors gathered from the vast fields of wild tempeh that once grew near Olduvai–vitamin B[sub]12[/sub] is only found in animal products. And good luck eating this sample diet every day without going crazy, never mind getting a kid to eat it, although someone who eats 150g of durian–a.k.a. the world stinkiest fruit–every day is unlikely to reproduce. I do agree that breast milk is nature’s most perfect food, and I plan to live on it exclusively as soon I find enough agreeable, lactating women. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/76 "2008-07-07T04:22:14Z")
[QUOTE=telecommunications] you don’t speak for all dopers i hope, but i’m ready for anything from this place. [/QUOTE] He speaks for me, and I’m as representative as all heck. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/77 "2008-07-07T06:12:51Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Oy, I don’t even know why I’m trying. Look, aside from humans, I live with two carnivores. Unequivocal carnivores of the feline variety. You want to know how I know they’re carnivores? When I offer them plant matter (aside from catnip), they sniff it and walk away. Plants don’t smell like food to them. If they’re silly enough to take a bite, they spit it out and walk away. I’ve owned omnivores, too. Canines, to be more specific. You know what they won’t eat? Nothing. They’ll eat just about anything you toss at them, because they can. Box turtles? Eat meat and plant matter. Omnivores. **Guinea pigs? Won’t eat the meat.** Will eat plants. Herbivores. Snakes? Won’t eat the plants. Will eat mice. Carnivores. Humans? Just like dogs, they’ll eat anything. Meat tastes good, vegetables taste good, grains taste good. Omnivores. This ain’t rocket surgery. [/QUOTE] Bolding mine I’ve seen Guinea pigs eat meat. Specifically, if cat food is left down where they can reach it, they’ll eat some of it once in a while. Not to the same degree they’ll eat their veggies, that’s for sure, but it’s not like they’ll ignore it either. Come to think of it, I don’t think there’s anything they won’t eat from time to time, provided they can reach it and fit their mouths around it. Pigs indeed. I also have a cat that goes crazy for the timothy hay that’s occasionally set out for the pigs. That is one weird cat. He’s not just chewing it either as TMI WARNINGcleaning out the litter, sometimes hay filled cat poops are found. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SeanArenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeanArenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeanArenas)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/78 "2008-07-07T07:19:32Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Look, aside from humans, I live with two carnivores. Unequivocal carnivores of the feline variety. You want to know how I know they’re carnivores? When I offer them plant matter (aside from catnip), they sniff it and walk away. Plants don’t smell like food to them. If they’re silly enough to take a bite, they spit it out and walk away. [/QUOTE] I had a cat who would eat corn right off the cob, and would eat lettuce. And like it. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/79 "2008-07-07T07:59:03Z")
Is there something in one of the Matrix sequels about this omnivore thing? Or is he just using Mr Smith as a sophisticated oratory technique? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326/80 "2008-07-07T08:30:57Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] Is there something in one of the Matrix sequels about this omnivore thing? Or is he just using Mr Smith as a sophisticated oratory technique? [/QUOTE] That depends on whether there is some definition of ‘sophisticated’ that doesn’t seem to appear in any of my dictionaries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/455326.md?page=5)