# Are humans meat eaters or vegetarians by nature? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 22, 2010, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531 "2010-11-22T09:26:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/101 "2010-11-23T23:33:23Z")
Admittedly I’m not an expert on b-12. It seems the body needs a very very long time to drain it’s supply 30 years? 1/3 to 1/2 the human lifespan? This is a very interesting and solid issue though. I’m going to need to check up on how other creatures that don’t obtain this through meat produce or obtain this. As the only way to obtain it in our modern industrial culture seems to be animal based foods. Which is a very solid piece of evidence for your case. The other-side of the coin is human beings do not produce vitamin C many other animals do. This is indicative of the primarily herbivore diet our sources are agreeing on. This deficiency happens much in a much faster span then 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/102 "2010-11-23T23:38:33Z")
I don’t know where you are getting the ‘fact’ that it takes 30 years for B-12 deficiency to become a problem (ETA, a [cite](http://www.suite101.com/content/vitamin-b12-deficiency-a127985) about B12 deficiency), but wherever you are getting it you are quite wrong. As for where other animals get B-12 (that aren’t meat eaters), I found [this](http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/animal): > [@](#): > > Summary > > There are many ways that mostly, or completely, herbivorous animals can potentially obtain B12 which are not available to vegans living in Western society. > > Ruminants > > Cows are ruminants, as are bison, buffalo, goats, antelopes, sheep, deer, and giraffes (1). Ruminants have a four-chambered stomach and a rich supply of bacteria in their rumen (the first chamber that their food enters) (1). Some of these bacteria produce B12 in amounts normally sufficient to meet their needs (2). > > Primates > > Non-human primates typically eat small amounts of eggs, insects, and small vertebrates and/or soil (3). Gorillas, possibly the closest to vegan of all the species closely related to humans, eat insects (3, 4) and sometimes feces (5). > > Herbivores > > Horses, elephants, zebras, rabbits, hares, and many rodents have large cecums in their digestive tracts, located between the small and large intestine (1) where bacterial fermentation takes place. Some sources say that all non-ruminant herbivores require some B12 fortification of their feeds (2), but at least one source says that bacteria in a horse’s digestive tract are able to produce enough B12 if there is enough cobalt in the diet (6). > > Many wild herbivores, such as elephants (7), inadvertently ingest soil on a regular basis. Hares, rabbits, and some rodents eat their fecal pellets, which provide an opportunity to obtain vitamins produced by bacteria in their digestive tracts (1). > > Cobalt is Necessary for Bacterial Production of B12 > > The availability of B12 for animals who rely on bacterial synthesis of B12 (rather than getting it from animal foods) is dependent on cobalt levels in the soil. Citing an article from the Annals of the New York Academy of Science (1964;112:735-55), Crane et al. (8) point out that some soils in Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Canada, Ireland, Germany, Holland, Kenya, Poland, South Africa, Sweden, Russia, and the USA have insufficient cobalt for adequate B12 formation. They state, “This is a major concern of ours because vegans commonly seem to hold to the concept that all essential nutrients will be supported in foods from non-animal sources. They fail to realize that plants can grow readily in soil that is too low in cobalt for bacterial action to supply animals with sufficient B12.” -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/103 "2010-11-23T23:49:36Z")
Some [additional](http://www.b12patch.com/blog/vitamin-b12/how-long-does-it-take-to-become-deficient-in-vitamin-b12/) ‘food for thought’: > [@](#): > > How Long Does it Take to Become Deficient in Vitamin B12? > > To answer this question a little back ground is in order. A healthy adult with a well balanced diet never has to worry about Vitamin B12 deficiency. Vitamin B12 is found in all animal based food products, meats, dairy, eggs, fish, cheese and any other product that comes from animals. So in absence of illness that would prevent the absorption of Vitamin B12, deficiency is unlikely. > [@](#): > > Vegetarians > Of all the represented groups that do not have a disease, vegetarians run the greatest risk of suffering from Vitamin B12 deficiency.\*\*\* The onset is typically about two years after the person becomes a vegetarian.\*\*\* Some vegetarians never realize the health implications of abstaining from animal products. There are important nutrients that the body cannot function without found in animal products. Supplementing the diet with Vitamin B12 supplements will prevent the Vitamin B12 deficiency. In some cases the vegetarian is faced with a twofold problem, a low ability to absorb Vitamin B12 that was preexisting and the lack of animal products in the diet, which supplies no Vitamin B12 at all. The vegetarian that suffers two fold will very likely face a Vitamin B12 Deficiency. > > _ **The onset of the illness will occur in about two years from the time the decision is made to abstain from animal products** _, a smart medical professional will do a brief history and once it is determined that the sick person is a vegetarian a simple blood test will be taken to determine the Vitamin B12 levels. In some instances the vegetarian will be misdiagnosed because of a too brief background investigation. Treatments will probably include Vitamin B12 shots to regulate the levels. The shots will be given every other day for around two weeks than on a monthly basis. My emphasis. -XT ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/104 "2010-11-23T23:59:02Z")
Cite is broken. Thats interesting, I found a bit about soil having it, some natural water sources having it(untreated). Also the rather gross implications about, leavings, it seems we do produce it in a manner, though getting it, let’s just say there isn’t evidence for that kind of behavior. There is some evidence of it growing on tubers, and roots, but it’s shaky at best. Some, only plant eaters seem fine with out it, some don’t. I don’t think there is enough study on it to be sure 100%. But for lack of a good study I’ll cede the point. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/105 "2010-11-24T00:04:21Z")
> [@JZesbaugh](#): > > Essentially a given mammal can eat outside their given biological niche. Humans for example have learned many ways to do this, this does not mean the human set up, as the author identified is primarily a herbivore. You seem caught up with an either/or of herbivore/carnivore and are ignoring the intermediate state of _omnivore_. That need not mean a 50/50 split between meat and plant food, only that a creature is either capable of eating both sorts of food, or _needs_ to have some from each category, but not necessarily a lot from both categories. > [@](#): > > Then in this mad race to prove me wrong, you are all ignoring two pieces of MAJOR evidence. > > Chimps diet. Primarily Herbivore. > > Lucy’s diet. Which is posted. Primarily, if not all Herbivore. > > Ice mans diet. Primarily Herbivore. Yes, _mostly_ plants - but not _exclusively_ plant foods. The serious consequences of lacking sufficient B12 - which until the last few decades (not centuries, just _decades_) was obtainable ONLY through foods of animal origin - should be enough evidence to convince rational people that, although people may not require a LOT of animal-source food, we do need SOME. _The fact that a truly vegan diet results in a B12 deficiency that, if uncorrected, can led to IRREVERSIBLE disability, insanity, or even death should demonstrate that a vegan diet is NOT natural!_ Of course, the amount of B12 required is minute, and since it does come from just about any animal food, consuming dairy products can make otherwise complete vegetarians immune, as can significant contamination of food by insects or rodent feces or both. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather eat meat than ratshit to stay healthy. ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/106 "2010-11-24T00:08:09Z")
Thus far no one has really addressed the solid evidence shown in the lucy find, or the ice man find, in any satisfactory manner. There is also the taxonomy claim, which has been addressed somewhat by technological rather then biological adaptation. I feel attacking the soft evidence has done well to bruise my argument, but doesn’t fully disparage the claim, due to the more solid anthropological evidence. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/107 "2010-11-24T00:10:40Z")
Here is a [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency) link then. > [@](#): > > Vitamin B12 was discovered from its relationship to the disease pernicious anemia, which is an autoimmune disease that destroys parietal cells in the stomach that secrete intrinsic factor. Intrinsic factor is crucial for the normal absorption of B12, and thus a lack of intrinsic factor, as seen in pernicious anemia, causes a vitamin B12 deficiency. Many other subtler kinds of vitamin B12 deficiency and their biochemical effects have since been elucidated. > > Deficiency of B12 due to low amounts of intake alone, is quite rare, and generally limited to vegan children, who are at risk due to higher needs of the vitamin, no intake of animal products that contain it, and low body stores (which in adults may last for years; see below). Vegans are generally encouraged to ingest B12 supplements, which are vegan since all commerical B12 is produced directly by bacteria. > > The total amount of vitamin B12 stored in the body is about 2–5 mg in adults. Around 50% of this is stored in the liver. Approximately 0.1% of this is lost per day by secretions into the gut, as not all these secretions are reabsorbed. Bile is the main form of B12 excretion; however, most of the B12 secreted in the bile is recycled via enterohepatic circulation. Due to the extremely efficient enterohepatic circulation of B12, the liver can store several years’ worth of vitamin B12. How quickly B12 levels may change when dietary intake is low, depends on the balance between how much B12 is obtained from the diet, how much is secreted, and how much is absorbed. B12 deficiency may arise in a year if initial stores are low and genetic factors unfavourable, or may not appear for decades. In infants and children, B12 deficiency appears much more quickly when the diet becomes poor in the vitamin. I don’t know why you think that ‘there is enough study on it to be sure 100%’…100% sure of what?? But if you are willing to move on then so am I. The bottom line is that there is just no way you can twist or turn to deny that humans have been eating meat since before we WERE humans…it’s integral to our development, and we evolved to eat the stuff. There is archeological evidence that our species eats meat going back hundreds of thousands and even millions of years (cut marks on bones and other debris). So, it’s a silly argument to attempt to make, and one that Vegans the world over always feel compelled to make even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. My question would be WHY you are making this argument in the face of that evidence? I mean, ok…today, Vegans can actually manage fairly easily to produce everything they need to survive on a strict vegetarian diet. But it takes a modern society removed from the struggle for survival our ancestors had to undergo in order to make it possible. Why can’t Vegans be content that for them it works, that it’s (relatively) healthy, and leave it at that? It’s almost like a religious urge to convert the heathen, this constant assertion that our species wasn’t meat eaters in some imaginary distant past (though, if you go back far enough I’m sure it would be the case…sadly, ‘far enough’ constitutes literally millions of years). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/108 "2010-11-24T00:14:51Z")
By “ice man”, you’re referring to that hunter who got caught in an Alpine snowstorm and preserved? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/109 "2010-11-24T00:14:53Z")
[QUOTE=JZesbaugh] Thus far no one has really addressed the solid evidence shown in the lucy find, or the ice man find, in any satisfactory manner. [/QUOTE] Satisfactory to who, exactly? [What did Lucy eat?](http://www.elucy.org/faq.html) > [@](#): > > What did Lucy eat? > > ``` > Lucy probably ate fruits, plants, roots, seeds, insects, and possibly small animals. A combination of cusp patterns and lines that are left on the surface of the tooth when an animal eats can help scientists better understand an animal's diet. > > ``` As for the Ice Man…no idea what you are talking about there. What about the Ice Man indicates that he didn’t eat meat? -XT ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/110 "2010-11-24T00:24:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You seem caught up with an either/or of herbivore/carnivore and are ignoring the intermediate state of _omnivore_. That need not mean a 50/50 split between meat and plant food, only that a creature is either capable of eating both sorts of food, or _needs_ to have some from each category, but not necessarily a lot from both categories. > Yes, _mostly_ plants - but not _exclusively_ plant foods. > > The serious consequences of lacking sufficient B12 - which until the last few decades (not centuries, just _decades_) was obtainable ONLY through foods of animal origin - should be enough evidence to convince rational people that, although people may not require a LOT of animal-source food, we do need SOME. _The fact that a truly vegan diet results in a B12 deficiency that, if uncorrected, can led to IRREVERSIBLE disability, insanity, or even death should demonstrate that a vegan diet is NOT natural!_ > > Of course, the amount of B12 required is minute, and since it does come from just about any animal food, consuming dairy products can make otherwise complete vegetarians immune, as can significant contamination of food by insects or rodent feces or both. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather eat meat than ratshit to stay healthy. Again, I’m trying to keep this in the intellectual framework. It’s not about what anyone actually eats or should eat. People do fine with (some)meat, there is no dispute to that what-so ever. The questions are centered around, scientific classification, and biology. Dairy easily solves the problem, as do eggs, which a tree climber like lucy would easily have access too. Iceman would get his b-12 from the small amount of meat he obviously ate. Or failing that having no social taboos as we today, could have easily eaten his own…as a gorilla. As the author on a previous cite pointed out, the though cow obviously takes insects as it eats it grass, we don’t move it’s mark to omnivore. It would seem all mammalians are somewhat functional as omnivores. So I’m seeing a larger classification problem. Cow 1/99 Chimp 5/95 Human 5-30/95-70 bear 50/50(i did not look up bears) wolf 97/3.(assuming they eat what’s in their preys gut+berries) The current three definition system does not do well reflect the diversity. ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/111 "2010-11-24T00:51:43Z")
Or more simply, a chimp is primarily a herbivore, lucy was primarily a herbivore, ice man was primarily a herbivore. A cow is basically a herbivore, a wolf is basically a carnivore. Omnivore while generally accurate, does not cover these very important distinctions. ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/112 "2010-11-24T00:56:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Satisfactory to who, exactly? [What did Lucy eat?](http://www.elucy.org/faq.html) > > As for the Ice Man…no idea what you are talking about there. What about the Ice Man indicates that he didn’t eat meat? > > -XT [http://www.fasebj.org/content/13/3/559.full](http://www.fasebj.org/content/13/3/559.full) Not the point, discussion was on biological set up vs learned habit. I’m trying to extrapolate and argument based on PRIMARY diet. Not something a given creature does every now and then, or by opportunism(every creature in nature is opportunistic), im focusing on what they are SET UP TO DO. Key being Primary. A three prong classification system is now getting in the way. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/113 "2010-11-24T01:03:38Z")
[QUOTE=JZesbaugh] Or more simply, a chimp is primarily a herbivore, lucy was primarily a herbivore, ice man was primarily a herbivore. A cow is basically a herbivore, a wolf is basically a carnivore. Omnivore while generally accurate, does not cover these very important distinctions. [/QUOTE] It is a series of distinction that simply shows a continuum, not a fixed difference. Chimps are omnivores that eat mainly plant matter. Same with Lucy (it’s capitalized btw, since it’s proper name). Ice man was certainly an omnivore, since he was a modern human. A cow is not an omnivore at all…it’s a herbivore, due to it’s digestive system and teeth, as well as other adaptions. A wolf is an omnivore that primarily eats meat. One of the big cats (like a lion or tiger) IS a carnivore, since it’s adapted to eat almost exclusively meat. I don’t understand why this seemingly simple point seems to elude you, but you are attempting to make distinctions that simply aren’t there. -XT ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/114 "2010-11-24T01:08:46Z")
I am measuring a board with my ruler, my ruler is in wholes and halves. The board is neither whole or half. My ruler is faulty so I add another notch. I don’t throw the ruler away, or try to declare the board is half or whole when it is not. I simply add the notch on my measuring stick so the distinction becomes clear, and can be properly communicated to others applying the same measurement. ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/115 "2010-11-24T01:10:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It is a series of distinction that simply shows a continuum, not a fixed difference. Chimps are omnivores that eat mainly plant matter. Same with Lucy (it’s capitalized btw, since it’s proper name). Ice man was certainly an omnivore, since he was a modern human. A cow is not an omnivore at all…it’s a herbivore, due to it’s digestive system and teeth, as well as other adaptions. A wolf is an omnivore that primarily eats meat. One of the big cats (like a lion or tiger) IS a carnivore, since it’s adapted to eat almost exclusively meat. > > I don’t understand why this seemingly simple point seems to elude you, but you are attempting to make distinctions that simply aren’t there. > > -XT since it’s adapted to eat “almost” exclusively meat. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/116 "2010-11-24T01:13:03Z")
> [@JZesbaugh](#): > > In this instance though he is absolutely correct. His points oddly echoed my own. And those of the National Geographic Article. I don’t care what he is so long as he has his facts strait. Straight, not strait. The problem with agreeing with an extremist internet nutcase is that in the end you’re agreeing with an extremist internet nutcase. It can’t enhance your credibility, because you’re tainted with everything else said. > [@](#): > > Essentially a given mammal can eat outside their given biological niche. Humans for example have learned many ways to do this, this does not mean the human set up, as the author identified is primarily a herbivore. Define biological niche. Even your quote states that humans ate meat to survive. > [@](#): > > Then in this mad race to prove me wrong, you are all ignoring two pieces of MAJOR evidence. > > ``` > Chimps diet. Primarily Herbivore. > > ``` Chimps are not humans. They split from the branch that would eventually lead to humans 6 million years ago. However, if you really want to bring up chimps, then consider this: chimps are known to use tools. And what do chimps use the tools for? To catch insects. Animal protein. Tool users use tools to make animal protein, the best, most concentrated form of protein, more available. Interesting. Humans have been tool users for their entire two million plus years of existence. Tool using = meat eating. Humans, genus Homo, have always eaten meat as a regular part of their diet. Meat-eating is as much a part of being human as using fire. > [@](#): > > Lucy’s diet. Which is posted. Primarily, if not all Herbivore. I assume you mean the link you gave in post #48. [National Geographic | National Geographic](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-ramidus.html). The one that starts this way: > [@](#): > > Scientists today announced the discovery of the oldest fossil skeleton of a human ancestor. The find reveals that our forebears underwent a previously unknown stage of evolution more than a million years before Lucy, the iconic early human ancestor specimen that walked the Earth 3.2 million years ago. This is purely embarrassing. How badly can one person misread an article if they keep referring to it as the “Lucy” article? And here is an even more embarrassing point: Neither Ardi nor Lucy are humans. Humans are genus Homo, a genus that did not appear for nearly a million years after Lucy. You cannot make a claim about modern humans by referencing, even correctly, a genus that is a million years removed from us. > [@](#): > > Ice mans diet. Primarily Herbivore. You posted a link while I was writing this, though you hadn’t done so before. All that article states is that his diet was primarily vegetarian. But the contents of his intestines show that his last meal was [very different](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2262615.stm). > [@](#): > > The results have been published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. > > The team writes: “According to the present DNA analysis, the last journey of the warrior/hunter was made through a coniferous woodland at an intermediate altitude, where he possibly had a first meal, composed of cereals, other plant food, and ibex meat, and ended with his death in a rocky basin at over 3,200 metres above sea level, not before his having had a further meal based on red deer meat and, possibly, cereals.” > > Dr Rollo added: “We were very impressed by the quality of the meals he had. The diet of people living at this time included rabbit, rats, squirrel - all sorts of things. But the iceman, in his last two meals, had red deer and ibex meat. It was a real medieval banquet!” Your arguments keep varying. You can’t argue simultaneously that humans are herbivores and omnivores or herbivores who eat meat or omnivores who don’t need meat or whatever your stance might be with your next post. Omnivore has a definition, one that we keep providing and you keep sidestepping. > [@](#): > > Now there may be two schools of thought on this. > > Biological predisposition and Behaviorally acquired. There are only two schools of thought if you say there a correct school of thought and an incorrect one. That’s obviously not true, either. There are enormous numbers of incorrect schools of thought, and you have given a number of them yourself in your various arguments. > [@](#): > > The current three definition system does not do well reflect the diversity. Only if you don’t understand the definitions in the first place. Carnivores and herbivores are extremely distinct types in almost every way. Far more than the arrangement and composition of their digestive tract is at issue. Their entire placement in ecological, biological, and social niches are at extremes because of their diet. Omnivores are more than just a little of this and a little of that. Their entire conduct as genera occupies different ground. They are fundamentally different from the ground up. As I said earlier, this is an absolutely basic fact that you need to be aware of before you can make any other statements, or else you will unavoidably get everything else wrong. ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/117 "2010-11-24T01:42:50Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Straight, not strait. > > The problem with agreeing with an extremist internet nutcase is that in the end you’re agreeing with an extremist internet nutcase. It can’t enhance your credibility, because you’re tainted with everything else said. > > Define biological niche. Even your quote states that humans ate meat to survive. > > Chimps are not humans. They split from the branch that would eventually lead to humans 6 million years ago. However, if you really want to bring up chimps, then consider this: chimps are known to use tools. And what do chimps use the tools for? To catch insects. Animal protein. Tool users use tools to make animal protein, the best, most concentrated form of protein, more available. Interesting. Humans have been tool users for their entire two million plus years of existence. Tool using = meat eating. Humans, genus Homo, have always eaten meat as a regular part of their diet. Meat-eating is as much a part of being human as using fire. > I assume you mean the link you gave in post #48. [National Geographic | National Geographic](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-ramidus.html). The one that starts this way: > This is purely embarrassing. How badly can one person misread an article if they keep referring to it as the “Lucy” article? And here is an even more embarrassing point: Neither Ardi nor Lucy are humans. Humans are genus Homo, a genus that did not appear for nearly a million years after Lucy. You cannot make a claim about modern humans by referencing, even correctly, a genus that is a million years removed from us. > > You posted a link while I was writing this, though you hadn’t done so before. All that article states is that his diet was primarily vegetarian. But the contents of his intestines show that his last meal was [very different](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2262615.stm). > > Your arguments keep varying. You can’t argue simultaneously that humans are herbivores and omnivores or herbivores who eat meat or omnivores who don’t need meat or whatever your stance might be with your next post. Omnivore has a definition, one that we keep providing and you keep sidestepping. > > There are only two schools of thought if you say there a correct school of thought and an incorrect one. That’s obviously not true, either. There are enormous numbers of incorrect schools of thought, and you have given a number of them yourself in your various arguments. > > Only if you don’t understand the definitions in the first place. Carnivores and herbivores are extremely distinct types in almost every way. Far more than the arrangement and composition of their digestive tract is at issue. Their entire placement in ecological, biological, and social niches are at extremes because of their diet. > > Omnivores are more than just a little of this and a little of that. Their entire conduct as genera occupies different ground. They are fundamentally different from the ground up. As I said earlier, this is an absolutely basic fact that you need to be aware of before you can make any other statements, or else you will unavoidably get everything else wrong. Well that was long. And full of assumptions. Cows eat bugs, are they omnivores or herbivores. I’m sure grazing “herbivore” animals have adapted to this concept over the millions of years they have been around. Maybe they even depend on small amounts of insect matter.(No cite just speculation) Yes the article states the the iceman’s diet is primarily vegetarian. Well he froze to death, I would imagine that area would be a bit short on vegetation? This “primarily vegetarian” would need some sort of apparently unusual food source. You need to be aware of this before you make statements or you will get everything else wrong? Please address that. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/118 "2010-11-24T01:56:14Z")
What exactly IS your point. Where are you taking this argument, if indeed it is an argument? ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/119 "2010-11-24T02:02:53Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > What exactly IS your point. Where are you taking this argument, if indeed it is an argument? The natural diet of a human being is primarily a herbivore diet. I think its more accurate then just saying omnivore. The article the OP is on is 20 years old, and not up to speed with modern thinking on the issue. Applying the three prong classification system is generally correct, but as I’m trying to demonstrate, misleading. That’s pretty much it. (The resulting debate is also kinda fun, and it’s interesting to see what people come up with) ---
**Author:** ![JZesbaugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@JZesbaugh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JZesbaugh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531/120 "2010-11-24T02:12:30Z")
> **[Ancient 'Lucy' Species Ate A Different Diet Than Previously Thought](https://phys.org/news/2009-10-ancient-lucy-species-ate-diet.html)** > > (PhysOrg.com) -- Research examining microscopic marks on the teeth of the "Lucy" species Australopithecus afarensis suggests that the ancient hominid ate a different diet than the tooth enamel, size and shape suggest, say a University of Arkansas... Exapno, here is your lucy article, you’re correct I did inadvertently post the wrong one. But as you seemed to suggest what our proto-ancestors ate is of little relevance. I tend to disagree though, I think what was it a million years of evolution, might define characteristics, or one thing leads to the next. None the less there is the correct article. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature/561531.md?page=7)