# Are Humans really Apex predators? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 11, 2016, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804 "2016-02-11T09:19:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/21 "2016-02-12T06:15:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The [Schöningen Spears](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6ningen_Spears) have been dated at 300,000 years Like I already posted, we have stone spear tips from 200,000 years before that, even. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/22 "2016-02-12T08:28:05Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > In fact I’m amazed humans didn’t go extinct 10,000 years ago before we invented weapons. As noted, weapons pre-date our species. And, in fact, we probably would have gone extinct had our pre-sapiens ancestors not invented them. But they did. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/23 "2016-02-12T08:33:05Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Humans and their predecessors are more adaptable and clever than the rest of the animal kingdom. We’re not necessarily more adaptable than other animals. > [@](#): > > We will eat just about anything, Same with bears, raccoons, pigs… > [@](#): > > breed like rabbits Absolutely false. We are one of the slowest breeding species on the planet. > [@](#): > > and work in packs. . Lots of mammalian predators work in packs. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/24 "2016-02-12T08:38:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And, in fact, we probably would have gone extinct had our pre-sapiens ancestors not invented them. Can you really have said to “invent” something if you just pick up a rock or a fallen tree branch and use that to clobber something? Chimpanzees have been seen using spears to hunt, even sharpening the ends. > **[Chimps Use Spears To Hunt](https://www.iflscience.com/innovative-female-chimps-may-have-pioneered-tool-use-hunting-27894)** > > Chimps Use Spears To Hunt Its likely that using weapons in the sense of grabbing a nearby heavy rock or tree branches as clubs goes back to the first Hominini around 5 million years ago and is common across all Pan and Homo species. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/25 "2016-02-12T08:43:25Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Can you really have said to “invent” something if you just pick up a rock or a fallen tree branch and use that to clobber something? Chimpanzees have been seen using spears to hunt, even sharpening the ends. > [Chimps Use Spears To Hunt | IFLScience](http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/innovative-female-chimps-may-have-pioneered-tool-use-hunting) > > Its likely that using weapons in the sense of grabbing a nearby heavy rock or tree branches as clubs goes back to the first Hominini around 5 million years ago and is common across all Pan and Homo species. There’s tool use and tool making. I think anything that falls under the 2nd category can be said to have been “invented”. One can, I think, reasonably argue that even the use of a raw tool (not altered form its natural state) can be said to be in invention. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/26 "2016-02-12T09:00:13Z")
Sure, the point I was trying to make is that even early hominids like Australopithecus would have been able to drive away a Lion if they were in a group and had crude clubs and rocks to throw. Big carnivores are risk adverse, if they break a leg they almost always die. As soon as something can fight back especially in a way they don’t understand, they’ll back off and look for easier prey. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/27 "2016-02-12T11:27:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Man has no sharp teeth, like the lion; no great claws, like the bear, he cannot run as swiftly as the leopard; he carries no poison like the snake. > > Yet this poor animal, man, with no fur to cover him, no fangs to tear with, no claws to scratch with, is master of the earth. The lion runs from him. The bull blind with fury, comes to him - and is dragged away by mules to the butcher shop. The elephant, the rhinocerous, even the snorting buffalo, at last have got mans measure, and, when they scent him, hurry to their hiding places. > > For man despite his weaknesses, has two weapons which other creatures do not have: he has the insight which teaches him to use sticks, stones, and metals as his claws and teeth and that most efficient of machines, the hand, which does all the bidding of his mind, to turn stick, flint, and leather thong into weapons which will strike down even King Wolf himself. _Fighting Men: How Men Have Fought Through the Ages_ by Henry Treece and Ewart Oakeshaft ---
**Author:** ![bomberswarm2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@bomberswarm2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bomberswarm2)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/28 "2016-02-12T12:01:43Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I’d say Apex predator is not right because we need a new word above that. Master species. We have the power to extinct entire species with no opposition (by which I mean the animals couldn’t stop us). ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/29 "2016-02-12T12:32:05Z")
**Turducken**. Any animal that can eat a chicken stuffed inside a duck that is stuffed inside a turkey, is by default, an apex predator. Hell, that not just being an apex predator, that’s showing off! Spiking the ball in the endzone so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/30 "2016-02-12T12:36:30Z")
Could another distinct master species have coexisted with us? Or would we eventually fight them for dominance? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/31 "2016-02-12T12:43:13Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Could another distinct master species have coexisted with us? Or would we eventually fight them for dominance? I believe the Cro-magnon dies out because of the “There can be only one” theory. That’s going off a vague memory, so I could be wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/32 "2016-02-12T12:50:13Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I believe the Cro-magnon dies out because of the “There can be only one” theory. That’s going off a vague memory, so I could be wrong about that. The Cro-Mangons were the earliest modern humans in Europe, you might be thinking of the Neanderthals who they displaced, though there was a few thousand years of overlap. Whether or not our predecessors were directly responsible for wiping out our cousins is debated, [recent research](http://smithsonianscience.si.edu/2015/08/why-did-neanderthals-go-extinct/) suggests that we were better able to withstand climate change and there was some interbreeding. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/33 "2016-02-12T12:56:18Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Could another distinct master species have coexisted with us? Or would we eventually fight them for dominance? Sure, but the Deep Ones have very little interest or ability to act in the surface world. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/34 "2016-02-12T13:02:06Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > The Cro-Mangons were the earliest modern humans in Europe, you might be thinking of the Neanderthals who they displaced, though there was a few thousand years of overlap. Whether or not our predecessors were directly responsible for wiping out our cousins is debated, [recent research](http://smithsonianscience.si.edu/2015/08/why-did-neanderthals-go-extinct/) suggests that we were better able to withstand climate change and there was some interbreeding. Ah, thanks for that **Mr. Kobayashi**. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/35 "2016-02-12T14:53:36Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > If a human went one on one with a bear or a lion we’d be killed every time. The only reason we’re the master species is because we have artificial weapons (unlike something like a snake’s venom or a tiger’s teeth and claws which are pedigree weapons). > In fact I’m amazed humans didn’t go extinct 10,000 years ago before we invented weapons. > Should we really be called Apex predators? Other primates who lack our tool making abilities manages to survive, I don’t see why a tool making primate species would go extinct. Also other animals that lack too making abilities hunt in packs ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/36 "2016-02-12T14:59:46Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > The Cro-Mangons were the earliest modern humans in Europe, you might be thinking of the Neanderthals who they displaced, though there was a few thousand years of overlap. Whether or not our predecessors were directly responsible for wiping out our cousins is debated, [recent research](http://smithsonianscience.si.edu/2015/08/why-did-neanderthals-go-extinct/) suggests that we were better able to withstand climate change and there was some interbreeding. > [@Grrr](#): > > Ah, thanks for that **Mr. Kobayashi**. But we also absorbed some of the Neanderthal population into our own, so they didn’t get completely wiped out in that sense. The idea of two “master species” co-existing on the planet is an interesting idea, and more the subject of speculation than science. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/37 "2016-02-12T15:24:10Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > Saying human beings have an unfair advantage because of our tools is exactly like saying saying snakes have one because of their venom and tigers have one because of their claws and teeth. Just to elaborate on this yet further: much of human physiology has evolved around the fact that our ancestors used tools. For example, our shoulder joint has a very large range of motion, which is believed to be mostly an adaptation to allow us to accurately throw missiles. In pure hand-to-hand combat meanwhile it’s something of a disadvantage as it can be too easily dislocated compared to a simpler joint. So saying “no weapons allowed” is akin to setting up a fight with a shark and saying “no water allowed”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/38 "2016-02-12T16:03:12Z")
As others have stated, weapon use predates our species, and is pretty hardwired. Even moreso, we are a _social_ species, and so have a big advantage over solitary predators - our direct competitors would likely have been wolf-packs, which we somewhat resemble, in being (i) social and (ii) dangerous. This has lead to a lot of behaviours inherent to humans that would otherwise make no sense. To give but one example: a distressed infant instinctively makes an incredibly loud sound - wailing and screaming. This would make no sense whatsoever if we were not apex predators, as such a loud noise would, of course, alert every animal - including every predator - that here is a helpless, tasty infant. However, it makes perfect sense if one assumes that a baby’s cries would attract a band of armed human adults, capable of killing any other predator. In that case, other predators would eventually have learned to avoid human noises such as a baby’s cries, because those that didn’t ended up dead. As an aside, it is fascinating to read Jim Corbett’s books on hunting human-eating predators, such as tigers, in India (for years, he was the guy that often got called on to exterminate dangerous human-eating animals). Fact is that even tigers, who are of course well able to kill and eat people, generally don’t. According to Jim, what causes tigers to turn to eating people is almost invariably some disability or injury that prevents them from hunting other prey (often, porcupine quill injuries). The reason: hunting people is very, very risky, a strategy only used when nothing else is possible - because humans can, and will, hunt down such predators (in these examples, by calling on Jim!). ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/39 "2016-02-12T16:17:00Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > What we really need to fear are tyrannosaurs in F-14s. A [raptor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor) in a [Raptor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor): the ultimate in air combat deadliness. The apex air predator, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/40 "2016-02-12T16:34:49Z")
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