# Are Humans really Apex predators? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 11, 2016, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804 "2016-02-11T09:19:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/41 "2016-02-12T16:35:51Z")
By enslavement ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/42 "2016-02-12T16:46:28Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > By enslavement Well, they didn’t _totally_ enslave us. It just _seems_ that way, when we have to take them for a walk, and work to pay their vet bills. 😉 But seriously - the similarities between humans and wolves made a certain amount of symbiosis possible. > **[National Geographic](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/)** > > Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/43 "2016-02-12T18:18:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As an aside, it is fascinating to read Jim Corbett’s books on hunting human-eating predators, such as tigers, in India (for years, he was the guy that often got called on to exterminate dangerous human-eating animals). Fact is that even tigers, who are of course well able to kill and eat people, generally don’t. According to Jim, what causes tigers to turn to eating people is almost invariably some disability or injury that prevents them from hunting other prey (often, porcupine quill injuries). The reason: hunting people is very, very risky, a strategy only used when nothing else is possible - because humans can, and will, hunt down such predators (in these examples, by calling on Jim!). Any animal can attack a human if sufficiently provoked and a desperate carnivore might try and eat us. However, most unprovoked attacks are from animals whose interactions with humans are in the regular course limited, like Leopards, Tigers, Mountain lions, Bears, Wild Boars. Savannah animals like Lions for instance, are much more wary of us, since they know that these creatures attack in packs, can kill from a distance and never tire. So the miracle in the story of Daniel was that the Tiger’s dens were closed for maintainance that day. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/44 "2016-02-12T18:23:53Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > If a human went one on one with a bear or a lion we’d be killed every time. The only reason we’re the master species is because we have artificial weapons (unlike something like a snake’s venom or a tiger’s teeth and claws which are pedigree weapons). > In fact I’m amazed humans didn’t go extinct 10,000 years ago before we invented weapons. > Should we really be called Apex predators? Think about it from the opposing perspective. Imagine if octupi had the power to put humans in zoos, in cages, had technology that basically controlled the world, and had the means to exterminate humans if they ever pleased. We’d call them Apex predators for sure, wouldn’t we - even though a human one on one fighting an octopus with brawn vs. brawn only would probably win? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/45 "2016-02-16T07:00:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But we also absorbed some of the Neanderthal population into our own, so they didn’t get completely wiped out in that sense. The idea of two “master species” co-existing on the planet is an interesting idea, and more the subject of speculation than science. Do speculate. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/46 "2016-02-16T08:40:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As others have stated, weapon use predates our species, and is pretty hardwired. Even moreso, we are a _social_ species, and so have a big advantage over solitary predators - our direct competitors would likely have been wolf-packs, which we somewhat resemble, in being (i) social and (ii) dangerous. Well in Africa our direct competitors would have been chimpanzees and other monkeys, and possibly hyenas, both of which are highly social pack animals. However our opposable thumb, shoulder optimised for throwing and language centre in the brain is our unbeatable combo. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/47 "2016-02-16T09:42:30Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Well in Africa our direct competitors would have been chimpanzees and other monkeys, and possibly hyenas, both of which are highly social pack animals. Actually, I think current thinking is that our most direct competition would be the advanced _hominin_ lines that are now extinct. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/48 "2016-02-16T10:10:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > However, most unprovoked attacks are from animals whose interactions with humans are in the regular course limited, like Leopards, Tigers, Mountain lions, Bears, Wild Boars. Savannah animals like Lions for instance, are much more wary of us, since they know that these creatures attack in packs, can kill from a distance and never tire. 😕 1. Leopards, Tigers, Mountain lions, Bears, Wild Boars \*are \*savanna animals. 2. With the possible exception of some bear species, all those species have far \*more \*interaction with humans than lions do. 3. Do you have any evidence that lions attack humans less than Leopards, Tigers, Mountain lions, Bears or Wild Boars? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/49 "2016-02-16T10:17:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Actually, I think current thinking is that our most direct competition would be the advanced _hominin_ lines that are now extinct. Yes, extinct precisely because we were more bad ass and out competed them and/or interbred with them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/50 "2016-02-16T10:23:11Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Bears […] \*are \*savanna animals. _Bears_, **Blake**? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/51 "2016-02-16T10:24:15Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Yes, extinct precisely because we were more bad ass and out competed them and/or interbred with them. … or pure dumb luck. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/52 "2016-02-16T10:46:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Bears_, **Blake**? Hell yeah. The [most dangerous bear in the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth_bear) is primarily a savanna dweller. And the common brown bear, the American black bear and several other species are found in any savanna ecosystems within their range. Bears are incredibly adaptable. It would be astonishing if they weren’t happy in savannas. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/53 "2016-02-16T10:47:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > … or pure dumb luck. Seriously. Most of the explanations for why anything historical worked out as it did are post-hoc rationalizing of basically random outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/54 "2016-02-16T10:51:05Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Seriously. > > Most of the explanations for why anything historical worked out as it did are post-hoc rationalizing of basically random outcomes. No, that’s an exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/55 "2016-02-16T10:52:49Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Seriously. > > Most of the explanations for why anything historical worked out as it did are post-hoc rationalizing of basically random outcomes. Evolution isn’t random. Language, opposable thumb and shoulder optimised for throwing were the killer “features” that made H.Sapiens win. I don’t believe any of the competing Hominids had all three of those. Neanderthals are thought to have had significantly smaller language processing centres. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/56 "2016-02-16T12:05:30Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Hell yeah. The [most dangerous bear in the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth_bear) is primarily a savanna dweller. Huh - learn something new every day - I knew about sun & Himalayan black bears, didn’t really know this one existed, let alone was as dangerous as it is. Tigers get all the press. Well, leopards too, nowadays 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/57 "2016-02-16T12:48:26Z")
None of the big predators routinely preys on humans. I suspect this is largely because most of the big predators learn to hunt from their mothers, or their pack, and mommy tigers in the habit of eating people don’t get to raise a lot of additional litters. But even house cats are relatively conservative in what they hunt as adults. The ones who learned to hunt mice as kittens are less likely to go after birds and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804/58 "2016-02-16T14:17:06Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Well in Africa our direct competitors would have been chimpanzees and other monkeys, and possibly hyenas, both of which are highly social pack animals. However our opposable thumb, shoulder optimised for throwing and language centre in the brain is our unbeatable combo. - Chimps aren’t really human competitors (nor are they monkeys). Humans are adapted, basically, for long-distance endurance (two-legged locomotion is part of that). Chimps have a wholly different habitat; much more arboreal. - Hyenas, maybe. They are scavengers, but early hominids may have been also. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-humans-really-apex-predators/745804.md?page=2)