# Are immigrants, legal or illegal, any more prone to crime than native-born citizens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227 "2006-05-25T18:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/1 "2006-05-25T18:57:46Z")
Whenever we debate immigration policy someone asserts that deporting all illegals would reduce the crime rate in the U.S. But nobody ever offers a cite. Is there any proof that immigrants, legal or illegal, are any more prone to crime than native-born citizens are? (For purposes of this discussion it is irrelevant that the illegals committed a crime in crossing the border; we’re concerned only with what they do once they’re here.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/2 "2006-05-26T14:04:34Z")
Nobody has an opinion? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/3 "2006-05-26T14:12:15Z")
Theres a thread on this already If I remember correctly. Immigrants are generally poor and they are a usually in a minority. In America, poor minoritys commit more crime. Thus immegrants commit more crime than average. However, I doubt if immigrants commit more crimes than native-born citizens in the same socio-economic bracket. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/4 "2006-05-26T14:18:46Z")
When I lived in Florida, I noticed that recent immigrants seemed more nervous & uncertain than the Average Joe. Possibly leading to more personal violence? Or not? If the immigrant is poorly educated, or speaks little English, or has no support net, he may be prone to turning to crime to make ends meet. Domestic violence charges may be raised, if the immigrant’s original native culture condones violence against women or children in the family. This can include “honor killings”. Personal violence may ensue if the Immigrant mistakes a gesture or phrase, innocently given, as an insult. Finally, some people leave home pursued by Furies, or at least the coppers, & bring their own demons with them. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/5 "2006-05-26T15:16:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nobody has an opinion? I don’t think it’s a matter of opinion…as you put it, it’s a question of proof! Maybe no one has the relevant statistic. 🙂 I have always thought that this was a stupid argument (curbing illegal immigration will reduce crime). If anything, I would think illegals would be LESS likely to commit crimes…I know I would, if I were here illegally. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/6 "2006-05-26T15:23:51Z")
Well, most (many?) of them need some kind of documentation to get work, don’t they? That certainly isn’t obtained legally. Also, most municipal cops are required not to inquire into the legal/illegal status of people they pick up for crimes, so I think any data we have is going to be skewed. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/7 "2006-05-26T15:29:44Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Well, most (many?) of them need some kind of documentation to get work, don’t they? That certainly isn’t obtained legally. Also, most municipal cops are required not to inquire into the legal/illegal status of people they pick up for crimes, so I think any data we have is going to be skewed. You are right about the illegal paperwork…I was sort of thinking outside the realm of crimes committed for the purpose of getting around their illegal status. I don’t think those are the kinds of crimes people are concerned with when making this argument, they are talking more of property crimes, such as theft, and violent crimes. I’m not meaning my posts here to condone illegal immigration, I just think the argument that it will reduce crime is not a good one. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/8 "2006-05-26T15:47:11Z")
Isn’t every illegal immigrant (working under a false/stolen SSI number a criminal? (Identity theft)). I find it amazing that people rationalize this-this is nothing less than stealing somebodie’s identity. For example, an illegal alien gets a driver’s licence via a stolen/assumed SSI number-now he is commitiing insurance fraud 9if he has insurance0, and fraud with the RMV. If he/she gets into public housing, that person is stealing a place from an American citizen. Also (no cite), but about 30% of federal prisoners are laiens. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/9 "2006-05-26T16:01:03Z")
When I went off to college, one of the things my parents told me and I believed was that if I even committed as common a crime as underage drinking, I could be deported because I wasn’t a citizen! :eek: **Bosda** , you know I like you and consider you a friend, but attitudes like the one you expressed in your post don’t help. I know a handful of people who “seemed more nervous & uncertain than the Average Joe”; they’re people who have anxiety disorders and/or a great deal of insecurity, and, as far as I know, all of them are native-born Americans. I’d say they’ve less of a propensity for violence than most people. Cultures, too, vary from region to region within the US, and, as far as “honor killings” go, the other day in my city, a man was convicted of killing his wife because she didn’t do the dishes. Again, as far as I know, both were native-born American citizens. In my personal opinion, I’d say being an immigrant in and of itself has less to do with how likely one is to commit a crime than one’s social class, one’s personal morality, and whether one entered the country legally or illegally. If I had to paint with a very broad brush, I’d guess that both legal and illegal immigrants would be less likely to commit crimes than native-born Americans because one thing can happen to us that can’t happen to you: we can be deported and that does raise the stakes a little higher. Still, that’s not enough, in my opinion to outweigh other factors which would influence one’s propensity to crime. I do have one request of my fellow Dopers. I’m interested in this debate, but, **please** , distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. As far as I’m concerned, there’s definitely a difference. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/10 "2006-05-26T18:06:42Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > When I went off to college, one of the things my parents told me and I believed was that if I even committed as common a crime as underage drinking, I could be deported because I wasn’t a citizen! :eek: You can’t always believe everything your parents tell you . . . But it **is** true that if you make a face at your grandmother it will freeze that way for life! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/11 "2006-05-27T20:42:29Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > You are right about the illegal paperwork…I was sort of thinking outside the realm of crimes committed for the purpose of getting around their illegal status. I don’t think those are the kinds of crimes people are concerned with when making this argument, they are talking more of property crimes, such as theft, and violent crimes. Well, this can be a form of identity theft, too. > [@](#): > > I’m not meaning my posts here to condone illegal immigration, I just think the argument that it will reduce crime is not a good one. I would suspect that the illegal alien population is more skewed toward the demographic that is more prone to crime (unattached young men) than the general population, so I bet it would reduce crime if we reduced illegal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/12 "2006-06-06T00:10:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I would suspect that the illegal alien population is more skewed toward the demographic that is more prone to crime (unattached young men) than the general population, … :dubious: There’s some cheerful disregard of cause & effect in that “analysis.” Now, if you want to argue that fugitives have an especial incentive to cross borders, fine. But appealing to demographic statistics is just… fuzzy. Yes, I’m pretty sure I’ve done it myself, but–not all young men are criminals! ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/13 "2006-06-06T00:39:36Z")
[This paper](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/international/immigrat.pdf#search='immigration%20crime') has studies on the question. > [@](#): > > Although a host of reasons exists to expect that immigrants are high-crime > prone, the bulk of empirical studies conducted over the past century have > found that immigrants are typically underrepresented in criminal statistics. > > \ > > Their most important finding was that “within the same type of social area, the > foreign born and the natives, recent immigrant nationalities, and older immigrants > produce very similar rates of delinquents” > > \ > > Yet the major finding of a century of research on immigration > and crime is that immigrants display tremendous variations over time and space > in their criminal involvement and, contrary to popular opinion, nearly always > exhibit lower crime rates than native groups. > > \ > > In addition to city rate comparisons, regression analysis revealed that “crime is lower on average in border areas than in other U.S. cities when the characteristics of the urban population are held constant” (1994, 20). A followup study conducted a more direct statistical test of the effect of immigration on levels of crime and found “no consistent or compelling evidence at the SMSA [Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area] level that immigration causes crime” (Hagan and Palloni 1998, 380). > > \ > > In the small number of studies providing empirical evidence, immigrants are generally less involved in crime than similarly situated groups, despite the wealth of prominent criminological theories that provide good reasons why this should not be the case (e.g., residence in disorganized neighborhoods, acculturation difficulties, conflicts between cultural codes). ---
**Author:** ![Twotwofive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Twotwofive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twotwofive)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/14 "2006-06-06T14:01:18Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I have always thought that this was a stupid argument (curbing illegal immigration will reduce crime). If anything, I would think illegals would be LESS likely to commit crimes…I know I would, if I were here illegally. If I had spent a fortnight locked in the back of a series of filthy lorries traversing Europe, followed by a month living rough outside Calais and three terrifying hours clinging to the underside of a high speed train as it crossed the channel, and arrived in London with nothing, having sold everything I owned to cover the cost of my journey, the thought that I might draw undue attention to myself if I did something illegal would be pretty far down my list of worries. I imagine a similar principal applies in the US, even if the geography is a bit different. And that is ignoring the large number of immigrants who come here (or there) with the specific intent of committing crime. Whether they mean to or not, large numbers of people come to London to enter the drug or sex industries. I guess that an immigrant who had no legal means of supporting themselves and who was not eligible for social security payments would also have a greater propensity to commit crime, especially if they arrived already owing large sums of money to people-traffickers (as many do). One final thought is that a number of immigrants bring their tribal/gang rivalries with them. In the area I live, Somalis stabbing each other is a particular problem. I have no idea whether the Somalis who commit these crimes are here legally or not, and I guess that they are no _more_ likely to resolve a particular dispute violently than a British native, but they are importing crime nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/15 "2006-06-06T14:09:54Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > [This paper](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/international/immigrat.pdf#search='immigration%20crime') has studies on the question. And [this researcher](http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOConnor/soc/355lect09.htm) contradicts your researcher. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/16 "2006-06-06T16:11:37Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And [this researcher](http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOConnor/soc/355lect09.htm) contradicts your researcher. Can you point to the place in your citation that actually “contradicts” (or even addresses) the specific points raised in **Lissa** ’s linked site? A saw a fair number of assertions with a few unattached factoids, but I certainly saw no contradiction of the conclusions–or even the evidence–provided in the study by Martinez and Lee. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-legal-or-illegal-any-more-prone-to-crime-than-native-born-citizens/358227/17 "2006-06-06T18:44:45Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And [this researcher](http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOConnor/soc/355lect09.htm) contradicts your researcher. Nothing in that article proves or even suggests immigrants are more prone to crime than native-born citizens are.