# Are immigrants today fundamentally the same as the immigrants from yesteryear? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182 "2016-01-25T16:02:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/21 "2016-01-25T18:54:58Z")
> [@andros](#): > > “It’s taking longer than we thought.” You think fighting “ignorance” is tough; fighting pretentiousness is a lot tougher … ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/22 "2016-01-25T19:03:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You think fighting “ignorance” is tough; fighting pretentiousness is a lot tougher … _“Pretentiousness”_? Hardly. I’m not out to impress you or anyone else, and I certainly don’t think myself to be a better person than you. I’m just a little saddened that you are so willing to hold forth based entirely on a vague gut feeling. It _feels_ right, so you assume it _is_ right. It might be, that’s the frustrating part. But you have no real facts in your support, not even any real reason or logical argument. Just “it makes sense to me, so I assume it’s most likely true.” Hell, might as well go back to heliocentrism. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/23 "2016-01-25T19:06:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Depends on what you call “evidence”. > > If you mean the general notion that having to do things to survive makes people do them even if they wouldn’t otherwise do them, then it’s supported by a vast amount of empirical evidence, to the point where it’s pointless to discuss it with anyone who might deny it. > > If you mean specifically that immigrant communities who become eligible for social safety net benefits gradually adopt that as a way of life to some extent, then it’s also supported by a lot of empirical evidence. > > If you mean controlled studies with statistical analysis and controlling for variables etc., then no. I have little doubt that this would be the result of any such studies would such studies be feasible and exist, but as they are probably not either of these you need to go with other evidence. No need to rely upon “studies” to support your beliefs. You just have to look at France. Large swathes of “immigrants” to France are now in their 2nd and 3rd generation as welfare recipients. Now, im not willing to say America _is_ France. There are obviously many differences between both countries, but neither do I believe too much in American exceptionalism. Im quite willing to believe immigration as a whole is good. However, if wrong domestic policies are implemented then immigration can be bad; if religious zealotry amongst immigrants takes an upward tick then immigration can be bad; immigration can also be bad for certain sections of the “indigenous” population even if it does benefit society as a whole. Sometimes the “they took our jobs” underclass are legitimately pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/24 "2016-01-25T19:10:36Z")
> [@andros](#): > > _“Pretentiousness”_? Hardly. I’m not out to impress you or anyone else, and I certainly don’t think myself to be a better person than you. Dismissing someone else’s opinion with zero substantive basis of your own, and entirely by means of empty posturing as “fighting ignorance” is pretentiousness. > [@](#): > > I’m just a little saddened that you are so willing to hold forth based entirely on a vague gut feeling. It _feels_ right, so you assume it _is_ right. Possibly you’re unfamiliar with the difference between “a vague gut feeling” and “_feels_ right” on one hand and “makes sense” on the other. You could read up on it. Fighting your own ignorance is also worthwhile … ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/25 "2016-01-25T19:13:00Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Large swathes of “immigrants” to France are now in their 2nd and 3rd generation as welfare recipients. Could you please define “large swathes?” As a percentage of the population and of total French immigration, by preference. Economic mobility numbers in France, particularly for immigrants and their descendants? And while you’re at it, I’d love to see any evidence that receipt of welfare is a result of lack of assimilation or even active choice. TIA. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/26 "2016-01-25T19:16:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Dismissing someone else’s opinion with zero substantive basis of your own, and entirely by means of empty posturing as “fighting ignorance” is pretentiousness. No, it’s not. And I have _not_ dismissed your opinion. You may very well be right. But your opinion is not precious, and you’ve not managed to support it with anything other than more opinion. > [@](#): > > Possibly you’re unfamiliar with the difference between “a vague gut feeling” and “_feels_ right” on one hand and “makes sense” on the other. > > You could read up on it. Fighting your own ignorance is also worthwhile … Now _there’s_ some pretension! Well done you! There is no substantive difference between “it makes sense to me” and “it just feels true.” None at all. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/27 "2016-01-25T19:27:30Z")
> [@andros](#): > > No, it’s not. And I have _not_ dismissed your opinion. You may very well be right. Yes, it is. And if the totality of a response is to describe something as ignorance, that counts as dismissing, and pretentiousness to boot. > [@](#): > > But your opinion is not precious, and you’ve not managed to support it with anything other than more opinion. Not trying to. I said upfront it was an opinion. Some things are just matters of opinion. > [@](#): > > There is no substantive difference between “it makes sense to me” and “it just feels true.” None at all. Nonsense. “It makes sense to me” is something that has a rational basis, albeit one which might be disputed. (In this case, the notion that government policies and societal attitudes influence people seems pretty widely accepted, and all I’m doing is applying it to policies and attitudes about assimilation.) “Just feels true” is used to describe something that has no rational basis which can be articulated. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/28 "2016-01-25T19:37:21Z")
Immigrants now assimilate much faster than immigrants did a hundred years ago. Immigrants use to arrive in America and often settled into communities with other immigrants of a similar background, which kept them isolated from mainstream American culture. That’s changed due to the pervasiveness of American media. Nowadays, immigrants often arrive with a fairly good knowledge of American culture from watching American television and movies. And once they arrive here, they’re not isolated from American culture because of constant exposure to the media and internet. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/29 "2016-01-25T19:38:43Z")
I get the impression (and I could be wrong), that a lot of Mexican immigrants aren’t necessarily doing the old 19th/early 20th-century style of immigration, where they pack up their families to make a new life in their new country. Rather, they maintain very close ties to their families in Mexico, with various remittances, and on occasion migrate back to Mexico if things get worse in the US. I can’t help but think that this pattern of immigration is fairly opposed to the concept of immigrating and assimilating that the 19th/early 20th century immigrants practiced. And I do realize that a lot of those immigrants didn’t speak English, and reconstructed a lot of old-world social institutions in their new countries, but over time, they assimilated. But if you’re maintaining close contact with Mexico, living among other Mexican immigrants, and reserve the right to bail back to Mexico when things get inconvenient, it strikes me that you likely think of yourself and your family as Mexicans living in the US, not as new Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/30 "2016-01-25T19:41:01Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Could you please define “large swathes?” As a percentage of the population and of total French immigration, by preference. Economic mobility numbers in France, particularly for immigrants and their descendants? And while you’re at it, I’d love to see any evidence that receipt of welfare is a result of lack of assimilation or even active choice. TIA. My definition of _large swathes_ - _a lot_. Not one study of French immigrants will I give. For the past number of years, with each terrorist attack in France(and there have been multiple) we have been told of the problems of an underclass of immigrant French Muslims. The reports of this underclass are so numerous that I will not even attempt a cite. Unless everyone has been lying to us(and I don’t totally discount that possibility) there is indeed an immigrant underclass in France. The lack of jobs for these immigrants and their lack of integration into French society is the reason trotted out after every terrorist atrocity in France. At least thats the reason given when commentators don’t wish to blame a worldwide rise in militant Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/31 "2016-01-25T19:41:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You have to take this one step further and remember that every generation of immigrants or children of immigrants says they were better and this round of immigrants are somehow different. > > Ben Franklin was worried that the Germans coming to Pennsylvania would screw things up with their weird language and customs. > > The Irish were considered lazy, drunk and violent by the ancestors of the people who came over on the Mayflower. > > Then the Jews, Eastern Europeans, Chinese etc. where all hated or feared and called different from the previous noble, hardworking generations of immigrants. But to our credit, we historically welcomed immigrants from Africa to our country, paying for their passage here and guaranteeing them jobs when they arrived. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/32 "2016-01-25T19:46:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Yes, it is. And if the totality of a response is to describe something as ignorance, that counts as dismissing, and pretentiousness to boot. Ah. How about this, then: Making assertions without evidence actively promotes ignorance. In my _opinion_. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/33 "2016-01-25T19:51:25Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I get the impression (and I could be wrong), that a lot of Mexican immigrants aren’t necessarily doing the old 19th/early 20th-century style of immigration, where they pack up their families to make a new life in their new country. Rather, they maintain very close ties to their families in Mexico, with various remittances, and on occasion migrate back to Mexico if things get worse in the US. > > I can’t help but think that this pattern of immigration is fairly opposed to the concept of immigrating and assimilating that the 19th/early 20th century immigrants practiced. And I do realize that a lot of those immigrants didn’t speak English, and reconstructed a lot of old-world social institutions in their new countries, but over time, they assimilated. But if you’re maintaining close contact with Mexico, living among other Mexican immigrants, and reserve the right to bail back to Mexico when things get inconvenient, it strikes me that you likely think of yourself and your family as Mexicans living in the US, not as new Americans. You’re mistaken about traditional immigrants. Of the immigrants who came to America from Europe a hundred years ago, a substantial number of them came here just to earn money while planning on returning to their native country after doing so. About half of the immigrants who came to America from Europe did end up going back. It’s hard to tell nowadays exactly what the return rate is among Mexican immigrants. With immigration from Mexico to America being illegal, the number of people crossing the border in either direction is speculative. It is clear that there are substantial number of Mexican immigrants who voluntarily return to Mexico after working in America but it’s not clear if the percentage is higher or lower than fifty percent. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/34 "2016-01-25T19:53:33Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I get the impression (and I could be wrong), that a lot of Mexican immigrants aren’t necessarily doing the old 19th/early 20th-century style of immigration, where they pack up their families to make a new life in their new country. Rather, they maintain very close ties to their families in Mexico, with various remittances, and on occasion migrate back to Mexico if things get worse in the US. > > I can’t help but think that this pattern of immigration is fairly opposed to the concept of immigrating and assimilating that the 19th/early 20th century immigrants practiced. And I do realize that a lot of those immigrants didn’t speak English, and reconstructed a lot of old-world social institutions in their new countries, but over time, they assimilated. But if you’re maintaining close contact with Mexico, living among other Mexican immigrants, and reserve the right to bail back to Mexico when things get inconvenient, it strikes me that you likely think of yourself and your family as Mexicans living in the US, not as new Americans. See **John Mace’s** post about the frequency of back-migration back to Europe. I think 19th century immigrants kept pretty tight ties back to their mother country. My own family still goes back and forth to Ireland for weddings, despite the fact that its been a full century since the New World branch migrated. (and in the case of the Irish, not only were family ties maintained over several generations, but political ties as well, with American-Irish families sending money, weapons and people back to help fight the British, and in one case actually trying to launch an invasion of then British Canada from the US). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/35 "2016-01-25T19:54:34Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Ah. How about this, then: Making assertions without evidence actively promotes ignorance. > > In my _opinion_. I disagree. And I’d be fine to leave it at that. But what about you? Aren’t you then promoting ignorance by your own position? Or were you about to trot out some evidence that making assertions without evidence actively promotes ignorance but got cut off by board software or something? This is admittedly getting a bit silly at this point. But there are some things that are simply matters of opinion and don’t lend themselves to whipping out “evidence”. Some people like to gain some phony advantage for their position in such arguments by demanding evidence or “cites” for their opponents’ positions, while of course providing nothing of the sort for their own. I object to this, and since this is precisely what you did here, I called you out on it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/36 "2016-01-25T19:56:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re mistaken about traditional immigrants. Of the immigrants who came to America from Europe a hundred years ago, a substantial number of them came here just to earn money while planning on returning to their native country after doing so. About half of the immigrants who came to America from Europe did end up going back. As I already noted, it’s [closer to 1/3](http://www.business-of-migration.com/ellis-island/migrants-who-returned-to-europe-from-the-united-states/). Not 1/2. But it was a large number, regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/37 "2016-01-25T20:01:09Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I get the impression (and I could be wrong), that a lot of Mexican immigrants aren’t necessarily doing the old 19th/early 20th-century style of immigration, where they pack up their families to make a new life in their new country. Rather, they maintain very close ties to their families in Mexico, with various remittances, and on occasion migrate back to Mexico if things get worse in the US. > > I can’t help but think that this pattern of immigration is fairly opposed to the concept of immigrating and assimilating that the 19th/early 20th century immigrants practiced. And I do realize that a lot of those immigrants didn’t speak English, and reconstructed a lot of old-world social institutions in their new countries, but over time, they assimilated. But if you’re maintaining close contact with Mexico, living among other Mexican immigrants, and reserve the right to bail back to Mexico when things get inconvenient, it strikes me that you likely think of yourself and your family as Mexicans living in the US, not as new Americans. Given how few Mexican or Central American migrants are given the _opportunity_ to think of themselves as new Americans, your last point is hardly surprising. But you’re correct in identifying an important difference between earlier and current waves of migrants. Mexicans and Central Americans certainly do retain far more connections with their countries of origin. Again, this is not surprising given geographical proximity, changes in technology, and economic and cultural globalization. Cell phones and electronic bank accounts make a huge difference. I’m not sure how important these connections are in and of themselves. Of greater importance is an irrational immigration policy which doesn’t create enough legal avenues of entry to match economic demand, as well as a growing population that has no way to acquire either legal status or citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/38 "2016-01-25T20:34:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But what about you? Aren’t you then promoting ignorance by your own position? You noticed my emphasis of the word? See, the difference is that I am not trying to present my opinion as though it carries any weight in this discussion. You certainly seem to be. > [@](#): > > Some people like to gain some phony advantage for their position in such arguments by demanding evidence or “cites” for their opponents’ positions, while of course providing nothing of the sort for their own. I object to this, and since this is precisely what you did here, I called you out on it. It is very much _not_ what I did. Despite your assumptions, I am not in opposition to your position, nor to you personally. I am in opposition to your presenting your position without support. If you seek to persuade, if you wish your opinion to have any heft, you might offer something–anything–in support of it beyond “it makes sense in my head.” (FTR, I am not opposed to **Fuzzy\_wuzzy** ’s position either, except that he has chosen not to back it up with anything other than vague handwaving and polemic. Hard to find that persuasive, or even take it seriously.) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/39 "2016-01-25T20:51:22Z")
> [@andros](#): > > You noticed my emphasis of the word? > > See, the difference is that I am not trying to present my opinion as though it carries any weight in this discussion. You certainly seem to be. Do you care to clarify how you differentiate between an opinion presented “as though it carries any weight in this discussion” and an opinion presented as an opinion? IMO saying “it makes sense to me so I assume it’s most likely true. YMMV” (as I did) is pretty clearly a presentation as opinion. (More below.) > [@](#): > > If you seek to persuade, if you wish your opinion to have any heft, you might offer something–anything–in support of it beyond “it makes sense in my head.” As noted earlier, some things don’t lend themselves to much more than opinion. But - as you yourself seem to agree - there is sometimes value in pointing out things that are matters of opinion. In such cases, when putting forth your opinion, it’s not because you want it to “have any heft”. It’s because it’s something that people might not have considered had you not pointed it out, and once you point it out they might agree to it, or even if not, to at least better understand the basis for your position. So when you express an opinion on such matters, it’s not to be taken as anything more than the above, and it’s a mistake to attack it as not “having heft” or the like. But of course, you probably already know all that, since as you acknowledge you’re perfectly fine with expressing your own unsubstantiated opinions. So I think you’re up to something else, as above. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182/40 "2016-01-25T20:56:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s because it’s something that people might not have considered had you not pointed it out, and once you point it out they might agree to it, or even if not, to at least better understand the basis for your position. And the \*basis \*for your position is “it just makes sense to me.” So, thanks for that, I suppose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-immigrants-today-fundamentally-the-same-as-the-immigrants-from-yesteryear/744182.md?page=3)