# Are "invisible fence" systems inhumane to dogs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220 "2009-06-28T00:29:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/1 "2009-06-28T00:29:24Z")
Are [invisible fence type](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_fence) systems that involve a shock collar and buried perimeter fence system inhumane to dogs or not? > [@](#): > > A pet fence, fenceless boundary, hidden fence (which is a brand of pet containment system owned by DogWatch), or Invisible Fence(which is actually a brand of pet containment system) is a wire around the perimeter of a home, designed to keep a pet within the boundaries of the property. The wire (which may be buried) carries a radio signal, while the pet wears a lightweight receiver collar which emits a warning sound when the pet nears the boundary. If the warning is ignored and the pet crosses beyond the boundary of the fence, the pet receives a mild electric shock. The pet soon learns to avoid the invisible fence location, making it an effective barrier. Animals not wearing the collar (including humans) are unaffected by the underground wire. Although called “fences”, these fenceless boundary systems are more accurately termed electronic pet containment systems. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Surb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Surb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Surb)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/2 "2009-06-28T00:47:34Z")
They are when you put the dog in the car and forget he still has the collar on and wonder why the Hell he’s yelping when you drive out of the driveway. Other than that, I got nothing ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/3 "2009-06-28T00:53:42Z")
We had one for our dog growing up, and being kids, would sometimes use it to zap each other. It certainly hurts, but its about equivalent to a pin prick, and of course stops as soon as you back up. And our dog, anyways, learned how to avoid it pretty fast. So if you think causing pain at all to an animal is inhumane, then obviously yes, but otherwise I’d say no. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/4 "2009-06-28T00:59:30Z")
Probably less inhumane than them being run over by a car when they get out. I’d never heard of them before this thread, though. They do remind me of the Running Man. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/5 "2009-06-28T01:02:54Z")
Better than me beating it for running out of the yard… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/6 "2009-06-28T02:17:45Z")
We have one for our dog. He has been shocked very few times, but in three years, only a few times - he doesn’t even yelp. When used properly, its a positive reinforcement system - with a negative backup. The collar beeps before it shocks him. You spend weeks training your dog to the beeps, with positive reinforcement for backing off when he hears them before you even add the shock. I’ve been shocked by the shock collar - it isn’t a horrible shock, and I shocked my hand picking up the collar - I didn’t have layers of fur. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/7 "2009-06-28T12:33:24Z")
One thing I recall that was noted about the civil war Anderson POW camp being particularly inhumane was something like a ‘invisible fence’ before the camp walls, basically the POW’s were told don’t come within x feet of the outside walls. A invisible barrier that was enforced by lethal force. This kept the POW’s confined by erecting a philological barrier, which seemed to be much more traumatic then a physical one. ---
**Author:** ![Fetchund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@Fetchund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fetchund)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/8 "2009-06-28T22:11:16Z")
Really depends on the dog, the training, the setting - I’ve seen some dogs do fine with them, some become afraid of the outdoors, and some that developed some pretty frightening aggression problems. They are NOT a good alternative to a solid fence, for a number of reasons. Even better? Training and supervision. ---
**Author:** ![Fetchund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@Fetchund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fetchund)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/9 "2009-06-28T22:28:07Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > We have one for our dog. He has been shocked very few times, but in three years, only a few times - he doesn’t even yelp. When used properly, its a positive reinforcement system - with a negative backup. The collar beeps before it shocks him. A nitpick - this isn’t Positive Reinforcement, the way I know it - this is Negative Reinforcement- punishment (shock) is withheld if the correct behavior is occuring. Positive Reinforcement would be if the dog were getting rewards for ignoring things that would normally cause him to leave the premises. From Karen Pryor at Clicker [Training.com](http://Training.com) [http://www.clickertraining.com/glossary](http://www.clickertraining.com/glossary) > [@](#): > > Positive punishment (P+) > Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of) a behavior. For example, jerking on the leash to stop a dog from jumping on someone is P+ used to suppress the behavior of jumping. Other common examples of P+ include yelling, nose taps, spanking, electric shock, and assorted “booby traps.” > > Positive reinforcement (R+) > Adding something the animal will work for to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. For example, giving the dog a treat for sitting in order to increase the probability that the dog will sit again. > > Negative punishment (P-) > Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of) a behavior. For example, a dog jumps on you to get attention. By turning your back or leaving the room, you apply P- by removing the attention he wants. > > Negative reinforcement (R-) > Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases, because that is the only “safe” place—because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed. It may not be that crucial what word is used, but it is to us dog trainers! ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/10 "2009-06-28T22:33:58Z")
Read what she said again and then hang your head in shame!!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/11 "2009-06-29T13:03:33Z")
I have no qualms about IFs WRT the dogs they control. My issue with them is that they are are discourteous to humans. It can be quite disconcerting to have a dog come running towards you barking, with no visible barrier between you. This is especially common when you are walking a dog on a leash. You have no idea where the boundary is behind which you hope the dog will stop. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/12 "2009-06-29T13:25:28Z")
We used to have one. One of our dogs wouldn’t go anywhere near it, the other ignored it completely, going back and forth at will. I was shocked by the collars a couple of times (don’t ask), and it feels like a bad static-electricity shock. It’s one “pop”, which is unpleasant, but hardly torture. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/13 "2009-06-29T16:47:11Z")
To add some data to the discussion, the level of shock is adjustable and various dogs need different levels. A large dog doesn’t necessarily need a higher level than a small dog; in fact the opposite is often true. If you have been shocked by your dog’s collar, the level may not be representitive of most of the collars. As **Dangerosa** mentioned, you are supposed to spend several weeks training your dog using flags, beeps, distractions, and even shocks. It is a commitment, although a smaller commitment than training your dog without the system. I don’t think it is worse than other dog training methods like using a choke collar. If trained properly, the dog gets the negative re-enforcement a few times and then learns the lesson. Personally, I think it is ok to use methods on a dog that we would not use on a human, although I can appreciate that not everyone agrees. I was able to train my dog off-lead for the basic cases, but I could not get her to master the cases with distractions. I consider this a commitment failure on my part. But it also meant that if she saw a squirrel across the street, she would go after it. After one close call, we got her an invisible fence. I think it was a good decision – she has the run of the whole yard (even the front) and there is no fear of her getting hit by a car. Since her initial training, she has not been shocked (to my knowledge). In fact, I don’t even replace the batteries anymore. This may be a testament to the training, it may be due to her disposition, or it may be a combination. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/14 "2009-06-29T17:28:20Z")
But you can train a dog to respect boundaries even without the invisible fence. A good dog doesn’t need anything more than a clear indicator of where the boundaries are: This could be something as small as one of those foot-high decorative fences, or even something like a change in the texture of the lawn. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/15 "2009-06-29T17:37:46Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I have no qualms about IFs WRT the dogs they control. > > My issue with them is that they are are discourteous to humans. It can be quite disconcerting to have a dog come running towards you barking, with no visible barrier between you. This is especially common when you are walking a dog on a leash. You have no idea where the boundary is behind which you hope the dog will stop. That’s generally why the Invisible Fence company installed two large-ish signs on my property that say “Dog Contained By Invisible Fence”. Still I suppose I can see your point. One of my dogs is an 85lb ball of muscle Boxer dog that does indeed rush up to the very border in the front yard barking his head off at people walking by. I have to concede a certain level of amusement at this though, especially folks with little yipster dogs. Most of the folks are my immediate neighbors and after maybe one scare, they know Riley can’t get them as they are also trained by the presence of the fence. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/16 "2009-06-29T18:25:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This kept the POW’s confined by erecting a philological barrier An impenetrable wall of text? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/17 "2009-06-29T18:33:04Z")
> [@fisha](#): > > Better than me beating it for running out of the yard… Yeah, that works great. A dog runs away, and when he comes back, he gets a beating. What’s wrong with this picture? [QUOTE=Chronos] But you can train a dog to respect boundaries even without the invisible fence. A good dog doesn’t need anything more than a clear indicator of where the boundaries are: This could be something as small as one of those foot-high decorative fences, or even something like a change in the texture of the lawn. [/QUOTE] That depends on the dog. A dog with a strong prey drive can be the Best Dog Ever and still not respect a boundary when a squirrel or a rabbit is on the other side. Folks who work Jack Russell Terriers have to take along shovels to dig their dogs out of the tunnels they chase prey into. Once on the quarry, they won’t get off until one of them is dead. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/18 "2009-06-29T21:18:10Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Yeah, that works great. A dog runs away, and when he comes back, he gets a beating. What’s wrong with this picture? > > That depends on the dog. A dog with a strong prey drive can be the Best Dog Ever and still not respect a boundary when a squirrel or a rabbit is on the other side. Folks who work Jack Russell Terriers have to take along shovels to dig their dogs out of the tunnels they chase prey into. Once on the quarry, they won’t get off until one of them is dead. My beagle mix is like that. We have a lot of deer around here and they drive her bonkers. If her battery in her collar is even a bit low, she says screw the invisible fence and gives chase. She’s disappeared twice like that on us now, once for almost a week (she was found by a neighborhood family like two weeks after we moved into the house and had the fence installed). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/19 "2009-06-29T22:34:24Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > My beagle mix is like that. We have a lot of deer around here and they drive her bonkers. If her battery in her collar is even a bit low, she says screw the invisible fence and gives chase. She’s disappeared twice like that on us now, once for almost a week (she was found by a neighborhood family like two weeks after we moved into the house and had the fence installed). That highlights another problem with invisible fences. Once the dog is out, he is dissuaded from returning by the potential for a shock. Also, an invisible fence doesn’t keep varmints out like a barrier fence would. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220/20 "2009-06-30T00:34:27Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Yeah, that works great. A dog runs away, and when he comes back, he gets a beating. What’s wrong with this picture? Whoosh. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-invisible-fence-systems-inhumane-to-dogs/501220.md?page=2)