# Are Iraq's terrorists opposing decent, women-friendly, pluralistic Arab government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432 "2003-08-25T01:47:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/21 "2003-08-25T14:43:03Z")
But, to beat the bad guys we’re hiring Saddam’s old Mukhabarat guys. In our government’s defense, their trying to find guys that served overseas (therefore hopefully less likely to be a sadistic madman). We’ve still not gotten much in the way of civil policing up it looks like. I know that it’s still a war zone, but the reconstruction needs to be accelerated and visible – even though armed groups are trying to impede it. It’s a real paradox: there need to be happy stories flowing out of Iraq or any reasonable person will conclude that things are going badly. Realistically though, what did we expect? Jihad season just opened in Iraq on the “infidel invaders.” Tab A, meet slot A. Everyone saw that one coming. Democracy seems to consist, so far, of statements from Chalabi in the media. I don’t think that dog will hunt. I should know. username… ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/22 "2003-08-25T14:47:18Z")
“Their” and “they’re” sound too much alike in my head. [Bart Simpson] They are They are They are They are…[/BS] Note, when I said “we’re” or “we’ve” – that’s just a bad habit. I personally sit here in Orlando by my computer. I would hire nice Iraqi cops and put them in shiny new SUVs and let them go catch bad guys. Keep some tanks around to watch over them. ‘We’re’ in this thing up to our ass anyway – why not do it right? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/23 "2003-08-25T16:43:04Z")
Oh, **Aldebaran** , duct tape is more American than apple pie. We don’t need a reason to buy that in 12 packs. In fact, I’ve said too much. The duct tape gap will be hard for the world to close even with knowledge of its existence, I have little to fear. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/24 "2003-08-25T17:11:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eolbo \* > George Bush’s War has fractured NATO IIRC only France, Germany and Belgium vetoedsupporting the war with Iraq, while about 17 NATO members voted in favor. Shouldn’t the blame for “fracturing NATO” go the the 3 nations who dissented from the will of the overwhelming majority? ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/25 "2003-08-25T18:05:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*IIRC only France, Germany and Belgium vetoedsupporting the war with Iraq, while about 17 NATO members voted in favor. Shouldn’t the blame for “fracturing NATO” go the the 3 nations who dissented from the will of the overwhelming majority? \*\* You dont recall correctly. What about Canada? Norway? Greece?Luxembourg? Or the Czech president denouncing the idea as a notion “from another universe”? [http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2003/03/27/52530-ap.html](http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2003/03/27/52530-ap.html) [“A day of sadness and grief”, Norway’s Prime Minister says](http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/17b220c61e81db15c1256cef00555e3f?OpenDocument) The only nations enthused by the silly idea were Spain, Poland and the UK, and even then the support was only at governmental level, the public in the NATO nations was _overwhelmingly_ opposed to the invasion. Much NATO ‘support’ was given grudgingly and with considerable hedging of bets. Italy said it supported you but pledged that its bases could not be used in the attack. The Netherlands said it supported you but refused to allow forces to take part in combat and refused to expel Iraqi diplomats. Etc Etc. Talk is cheap so some of them spoke it but all in all they hoped you would come to your senses before you got yourself in this mess. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/26 "2003-08-25T18:18:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eolbo \* > \*\*You dont recall correctly. \*\* The vote I was thinking of was the proposal for NATO to strengthen Turkey’s air defences, because of the risk that Turkey might have been attacked during an Iraq war. (Fortunately that didn’t happen.) On that NATO proposal, only the 3 mentioned I mentioned voted against. See: [Bush: Allies’ veto hurts NATO; Vote on Turkey baffles president](http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030211-iraq01.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/27 "2003-08-25T18:32:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > The vote I was thinking of was the proposal for NATO to strengthen Turkey’s air defences, because of the risk that Turkey might have been attacked during an Iraq war. (Fortunately that didn’t happen.) The war’s not over yet, either. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/28 "2003-08-25T18:46:33Z")
[http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2003\_08\_01\_riverbendblog\_archive.html#106164840093303350](http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#106164840093303350) I think you could argue better that people who support the way things are going in Iraq oppose decent, women-friendly, pluralistic Arab government. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/29 "2003-08-25T21:22:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > > How would posters feel if America really is fighting an enemy so clearly wrong that we’re the good guys? Would you be happy to know that we’re on the side of righteousness? Would you be upset to have your world view be not applicable? I don’t know whom in particular you are addressing with these remarks, but \*my[/i world view is more nuanced than that. There is right and wrong, good and bad, on both sides. On the other hand, wait a minute: _both_ sides? There are dozens of overlapping layers of interests in Iraq right now; “facets” might be a more accurate term than “sides.” How much muck and bleach do you consume in your attempt to make everything black and white? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/30 "2003-08-25T21:53:09Z")
december, one can no longer fight the way the Biblical Israelites fought in the name of “righteousness”–that is, by genocide. After all, Jew and Arab are brothers. Killing each other is like killing members of one’s family. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/31 "2003-08-25T22:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > How would posters feel if America really is fighting an enemy so clearly wrong that we’re the good guys? Would you be happy to know that we’re on the side of righteousness? Would you be upset to have your world view be not applicable? I thought these latest evil-doers were fighting to not have imposed on them and their societies yet another white, western, Christian, capitalist, self-serving disastrous ‘solution’ – it must get a little tiring after the first 100 years or so. And, besides, it’s such a terrible strain for us as well, all this white man’s burden stuff. You’d think the natives would be more grateful, wouldn’t you. . . ? Plus, these so-called "terrorists are fighting “righteousness” in their own country and against an invader who refuses to go away; is their something wrong with that image of “righteousness” - perhaps not, maybe we should rename it ‘Operation Albert Schweitzer’ and start doling out missionary books and piano lessons. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432/32 "2003-08-26T02:02:58Z")
Even if you say Al Qaeda is clearly wrong December (which is hard to argue against)… what the US does is not necessarily “good”. If the US kills Iraqis torturing them to get info… would that constitute “good” even if it gets the US vital “terrorist” information ? So yes… people fighting bad can be bad too. “Beware he who fights with monsters lest he thereby becomes a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.” - Friedrich Nietzsche [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-iraqs-terrorists-opposing-decent-women-friendly-pluralistic-arab-government/197432.md?page=1)