# Are Irish Protestants really Irish? What do they think of themselves as being? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 22, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703 "2014-07-22T00:30:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/21 "2014-07-23T13:53:44Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > If that were the case, this issue would be easy to solve. It’s not. Religion is very low on list list of grievances, and the community tags are commonly used in place of “Nationalist” and “Unionist.” I’ve said it before, but this is really an ethnic conflict, not a religous one. The “Catholics” (read: Irish Nationalists) view the “Protestants” (read: British Loyalists) essentially as invaders. The religious labels might be convenient, but they’re mostly a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/22 "2014-07-23T14:01:15Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > But I want to also point out the awfulness of saying someone isn’t an “X” because of religion. Remember You Know Who back in the 1930s who pulled this. Father Coughlin? ---
**Author:** ![Absinthe\_Anecdote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@Absinthe\_Anecdote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absinthe_Anecdote)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/23 "2014-07-23T14:05:49Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Are Protestants in Northern Ireland in particular actually of Irish ancestry or are they mostly descended from Scots, Yorkshiremen and Geordies? Was there ever a significant number of Irish Gaelic people who converted to Protestantism or is the difference between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland clear in the genome as well? > > Do people in Northern Ireland who are Protestant consider themselves Irish, English, Scottish or neither? As Claverhouse explained they view themselves as Ulster Scots. The American term for Ulster Scots is Scots-Irish, but don’t use that around an Ulsterman in Belfast or you will get an earful. They are offended by they American term for Ulster Scots that went to America in the 1600s. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/24 "2014-07-23T15:07:04Z")
My family members would not take it kindly if you referred to them as Scots of any sort. They are Irish men and women, of County Down. Which is currently ruled by Great Britain, to their quiet dismay. Most will acknowledge that they are British Citizens, but would prefer not to be called “Brits.” (The more virulently Nationalist family strains having been log since ousted to the USA and Australia.) we are all descended mostly from Gaelige Catholics and Druids. (There’s no living memory of Druids, but the rings of Rowan trees on our land speak for themselves, as do some of the standing stones and ancient altars.) There are both a [Mass](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_rock) Rock and a Priest Hole (actually, a [souterrain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souterrain) in our case, much older than the conflict, but used as one) on our land, and both were put to good use during the penal years. But if you insist upon genetic testing, I think you’ll find quite a few of our women conscripted Viking raiders to serve as husbands; and one family were shocked to learn they were descended from Ashkenazi Jews. We have more then the usual percentage of Neanderthal as well. As for politics, folks today generally make their own decisions based upon intellectual argument, rather than any family or genetic inheritance. In the USA I’ll still occasionally hear someone say they are a Republican because their Father and Grandfather were, but I’ve never heard that in Ireland. Among the cousins (so obvious genetic links there) are several different beliefs about what would be the best form of government for Ireland. Most agree that participation in the EU is essential due to their size, and the NI folks are really annoyed that they aren’t using Euros yet. I’d say the only real consensus is on EU membership (pro) and Social Democracy (about 85% pro). There are one or two still rabidly Catholic who think divorce should be outlawed etc, but we sort of pat them on the head and carry them along for entertainment value. For the most part, the church is where one goes to marry and bury. ---
**Author:** ![Absinthe\_Anecdote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@Absinthe\_Anecdote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absinthe_Anecdote)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/25 "2014-07-23T17:01:23Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > My family members would not take it kindly if you referred to them as Scots of any sort. They are Irish men and women, of County Down. Which is currently ruled by Great Britain, to their quiet dismay. Then I take it that your family is Catholic? Scots-Irish or Ulster Scots refers to Protestants, but as I said before, Scots-Irish is purely an American term for early Protestant settlers from Northern Ireland in the USA. Ulster Scots living in Northern Ireland today, shun the American term because it wrongly implies a mix of Scot and Irish heritage, they take exception to the word Irish. New World Scots-Irish came over as indentured servants in the early 1600s, long before the big Irish influx of the early to mid 1800s. Many Scots-Irish settled in the Appalachian mountains, their heritage being primarily Scottish, by way of Northern Ireland. They were largely despised by the English settlers and their ethnic group were commonly referred to as crackers (craic) and Rednecks (Scottish Covenanter). ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/26 "2014-07-23T17:22:03Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I don’t interpret it that way or even see it as an important issue. All of the Northern Irish people that I know (my uber boss is one) self-identify as Irish, speak with an Irish accent and have obviously Irish mannerisms… What are considered Irish mannerisms? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/27 "2014-07-23T17:24:36Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Of course you know Wolfe Tone and Charles Stewart Parnell were not Catholics On the other hand, there was a quote commonly (mis)attributed to the Duke of Wellington, on asked whether he was “Irish” having been born in Ireland: “Being born in a stable does not make one a horse”. :eek: [Actually, not Wellington - it was a quote from Irish politician Daniel O’Connell _about_ Wellington]. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/28 "2014-07-23T18:44:36Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I’ve said it before, but this is really an ethnic conflict, not a religous one. The “Catholics” (read: Irish Nationalists) view the “Protestants” (read: British Loyalists) essentially as invaders. The religious labels might be convenient, but they’re mostly a red herring. Which is essentially what I was saying? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/29 "2014-07-23T18:57:00Z")
My ancestors from County Armagh were Protestant, with Irish Gaelic surnames, and identified as Irish, and ONLY as Irish (they left before Irish independence). I know that’s tangential from the OP’s question, which is about right now, but I just wanted to point out that a lot of the indigenous Irish became Protestant and switched to English, under pressure to assimilate with the dominant ruling culture. Not everybody fights the good fight, but they’re no less Irish for that. My grandmother was still classed as Irish by the British government in the 1940s, though the Irish government (had they expressed an opinion) would have called her British, as she was too many generations away from Irish soil. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/30 "2014-07-23T19:21:42Z")
Actor [James Nesbitt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Nesbitt) is an interesting case. > [@](#): > > James Nesbitt was born on 15 January 1965 in Ballymena, County Antrim, Northern Ireland… The family was Protestant, and Lisnamurrican was in “Paisley country”. The Nesbitts spent Sunday evenings singing hymns around the piano. Jim marched in the Ballymena Young Conquerors flute band and Nesbitt joined him playing the flute. After the Drumcree conflicts, they stopped marching with the band. The family’s residence in the countryside left them largely unaffected by The Troubles, although Nesbitt, his father, and one of his sisters narrowly escaped a car bomb explosion outside Ballymena County Hall in the early 1970s… > > Nesbitt felt lost and misrepresented when he first arrived in London, on account of his Northern Irish background; “When I first came to drama school I was a Paddy the minute I walked in. And I remember going to drama school and them all saying to me, ‘Aww, yeah, Brits out’, and I was like ‘It’s a wee bit more complicated than that, you know.’” ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/31 "2014-07-23T19:22:18Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Of course you know Wolfe Tone and Charles Stewart Parnell were not Catholics Quite so- there’s actually a long history of outsiders and descendants of outsiders becoming “more Irish than the Irish.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/32 "2014-07-23T19:31:31Z")
I actually thought the conflict between Ireland and Great Britain had died down in the last twenty years or so. Was I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/33 "2014-07-23T20:03:41Z")
Anyway, I was recently told by a chap here that out in the sweet countryside, maybe during the eighties, the army/police turned up regularly at a wee school and the little angels threw stones at them etc.; so they were asked why they kept going back to the school for no overt reason, and they answered: ‘_Because they throw stones at policemen_.’ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/34 "2014-07-23T20:05:25Z")
My GF’s father is from Belfast. He considers himself Irish first, British second (or maybe fifth 🙂 ). He’s Catholic. And his surname is not “typically Irish”, but seems English. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/35 "2014-07-23T21:24:48Z")
> [@Absinthe\_Anecdote](#): > > Then I take it that your family is Catholic? > > Scots-Irish or Ulster Scots refers to Protestants, but as I said before, Scots-Irish is purely an American term for early Protestant settlers from Northern Ireland in the USA. > > Ulster Scots living in Northern Ireland today, shun the American term because it wrongly implies a mix of Scot and Irish heritage, they take exception to the word Irish. > > New World Scots-Irish came over as indentured servants in the early 1600s, long before the big Irish influx of the early to mid 1800s. > > Many Scots-Irish settled in the Appalachian mountains, their heritage being primarily Scottish, by way of Northern Ireland. They were largely despised by the English settlers and their ethnic group were commonly referred to as crackers (craic) and Rednecks (Scottish Covenanter). But you’re not going back quite far enough there. In AD 400ish a large group of Irish (from Antrim) moved into Scotland (they were the original Scotis - as opposed to the Picts who were there already) and brought the Gaeilge with them. “Scots” as Byron spoke it was actually a Germanic language. Gaidlig na hAlban (Scots Gaeilge or Gaidhlig) is the language of the descendants of those original Irish settlers. And Cromwells biggest trouble was his lack of Gaeilge-speaking enforcers, so part of the big plantation strategy was to get loyal Gaeilgoiri into Northern Ireland. My people would object to being referred to as Scots because we never left. There is archaeological evidence of our family being on our land for at least 3,000 years. (See “souterrain” above, which also contained a Viking long sword.) The OPs question was about genetic groups. And thus my point, if you trace back far enough, you find most of the Scots who would have been transplanted would have been genetic descendants of Irish Gaels, who happened to be Presbyterian and either loyal to Cromwell or willing to pretend so if it got them some land. > **[Scotland's Irish Origins - Archaeology Magazine Archive](https://archive.archaeology.org/0107/abstracts/scotland.html)** > > Tracking the migration of Gaelic speakers who crossed the Irish Sea 1,700 years ago and became the Scots \[abstract\] ---
**Author:** ![Absinthe\_Anecdote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@Absinthe\_Anecdote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absinthe_Anecdote)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/36 "2014-07-23T21:58:13Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > But you’re not going back quite far enough there. In AD 400ish a large group of Irish (from Antrim) moved into Scotland (they were the original Scotis - as opposed to the Picts who were there already) and brought the Gaeilge with them. “Scots” as Byron spoke it was actually a Germanic language. Gaidlig na hAlban (Scots Gaeilge or Gaidhlig) is the language of the descendants of those original Irish settlers. And Cromwells biggest trouble was his lack of Gaeilge-speaking enforcers, so part of the big plantation strategy was to get loyal Gaeilgoiri into Northern Ireland. > > My people would object to being referred to as Scots because we never left. There is archaeological evidence of our family being on our land for at least 3,000 years. (See “souterrain” above, which also contained a Viking long sword.) > > The OPs question was about genetic groups. And thus my point, if you trace back far enough, you find most of the Scots who would have been transplanted would have been genetic descendants of Irish Gaels, who happened to be Presbyterian and either loyal to Cromwell or willing to pretend so if it got them some land. > > [Scotland's Irish Origins - Archaeology Magazine Archive](http://archive.archaeology.org/0107/abstracts/scotland.html) That’s fascinating, and it jives with what little that I’ve been able to track down about the origins of my Gaelic sounding surname, but it becomes very hazy because when Gaelic surnames where Anglicized a lot was blurred. From what I can tell, my particular surname wasn’t associated with a Scottish clan. It makes sense that there was movement of Irish people back and forth between Ireland and Scotland over the centuries. I’m guessing that my particular linage was in one of those groups that moved back and forth. Still, there are plenty of lowland Scots that settled in Ulster who strongly identify with their Scottish heritage. Very interesting, thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/37 "2014-07-23T22:18:34Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > What are considered Irish mannerisms? Getting drunk? ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/38 "2014-07-24T00:31:09Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > As for politics, folks today generally make their own decisions based upon intellectual argument, rather than any family or genetic inheritance. In the USA I’ll still occasionally hear someone say they are a Republican because their Father and Grandfather were, but I’ve never heard that in Ireland. Among the cousins (so obvious genetic links there) are several different beliefs about what would be the best form of government for Ireland. Most agree that participation in the EU is essential due to their size, and the NI folks are really annoyed that they aren’t using Euros yet. There are still plenty of people in Northern Ireland that make their political decisions based on family and history. Have you ever been in NI in July? I’m sure the majority of people in NI are sick of the conflict perpetuated by pigheadedness on either side, but the people who glory in the summer parades and all the trouble they bring are still a significant and vocal minority. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/39 "2014-07-24T01:03:50Z")
I scanned a chart from a book that is relevant to this discussion, called “[Protestant identity in Northern Ireland 1969 - 1989](https://www.flickr.com/photos/8597114@N07/14727195844/)”. It shows that Protestants were less inclined to identify as Irish over the years of the Troubles, it also shows that “Northern Irish” as an identity emerged in the period. My experience chimes with that of **Hazelnut Coffee** above. It really depends. I have friends in Northern Ireland from both backgrounds and family from Catholic background (although I have significant Protestant ancestry on both sides) and it is clear to me that there are Protestants who have no issue with being identified as “Irish” and other who are at pains to explain how they’re not (at least in my company). I know that all people originally from Northern Ireland are typically seen as “Irish” in Britain regardless of their cultural background. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703/40 "2014-07-24T01:08:15Z")
I also have a decent cohort of friends of a Protestant background in the Republic and I, nor anyone other than an ignorant bigot, would consider themselves “less” Irish though I’ve never quizzed them on whether their Irish identity is problematic in any way. ETA: As a general comment plenty of Irish Protestants express pride and identification with their Scottish ancestry and ties but so do many Catholics. I have learned over the last few years of studying local history and identity that it’s all rather complex and there is internal diversity that is all but invisible to non-local eyes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-irish-protestants-really-irish-what-do-they-think-of-themselves-as-being/693703.md?page=3)