# Are Jews a race or a religion (or both)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269 "2002-07-28T19:11:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/1 "2002-07-28T19:11:25Z")
I’ve heard some call Jews a “race”. Others claim that it’s a religion. Still others say it’s both. It seems that blood lineage has something to do with Judaism, because children born to a Jewish mother are considered Jews. On the other hand, IIRC, Sammy Davis Jr was Jewish, and he was black. What’s the straight dope on this? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/2 "2002-07-28T19:20:16Z")
This has been addressed before (as I type, the search engine is searching for links). Jews in America primarly see Judaism as a religion. Jews in Israel primarily see Judaism as an ethnicity. None see Judaism as a race. The general consensus from the discussion on these boards is that Judaism is best described as a _tribe._ A grouping of persons bound by blood ties and (at least some bare minimum) shared beliefs, but in which membership is not limited - anyone can join the tribe. Damn engine is still searching. I’ll post again when I get links. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/3 "2002-07-28T19:28:08Z")
Dex’s [Staff Report](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjewish.html) on “Can you be an atheist and still be Jewish?” ---
**Author:** ![SUPERKARLENE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@SUPERKARLENE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SUPERKARLENE)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/4 "2002-07-28T19:48:13Z")
I see it as both. I have many Jewish friends, and most of them acknowledge it not only as a religion, but as an unique culture. It’s possible to be Jewish without the ethnic trappings that go with it, but that’s like taking the sugar out of the Coke. It just doesn’t quite seem the same. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/5 "2002-07-28T19:48:15Z")
Well, that was a lot easier than a thread search. Thanks, **DDG,** (The threads I was searching for came to roughly the same conclusions.) Sua ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/6 "2002-07-28T20:16:27Z")
One problem with this question in 2002 is that Jews were a “race” before the word race took its current meaning. In English, the word _race_ carried the meaning “a group of people commonly thought to be descended from a common (real or legendary) ancestor. Thus, Romans were of the “race” of Aeneas” and the Irish were the “Milesian race” and Jews were the “race of Abraham.” In that usage, the term has made it into various literary passages, and so is handed to us. It was the concept of common descent which the word _race_ conveyed that led to it being used by the people who initially began trying to “organize” humanity into separate biological groups. It is this separate meaning which people think of, today, and when they hear the older phrases, they tend to confuse the meanings. To add further confusion, while one may wish to identify _Jews_ as only those people who are adherents to Judaism, there is still the problem that other people may not permit such a limit: “Jews” in Central Europe during WWII included anyone with even a single (great-?)grandparent who had been an observant Jew–even if everyone else in one’s ancestry were Gentiles. **Dex** addressed some of those issues in the SDStaff Report [Can you be an atheist and still be Jewish?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjewish.html) According to To Be A Jew, Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin, 1972: > [@](#): > > In the very emphasis upon the particular, this singular family reflected the noblest form of universalism. The universalism that permeates the faith of Israel is reflected not only in its theological formulations and in its visions of the future, but in the very composition of its people. This seemingly “exclusive” people includes those whose skins range from the lightest to the darkest in colors, and within it a broad range of cultural diversity is represented. Yet despite the diversity that exists among them and the multitude of languages they speak, Jews regard themselves as related, as true brethren stemming from a common Semitic family. Although it is a religion which unites them and it is only on the basis of religion that newcomers are admitted into fellowship, this feeling of kinship is very strong–and the mystery deepens when we realize that even Jews who rebel against the faith and discard its religious beliefs and practices are still regarded as Jews, and generally themselves still feel the bonds of kinship. > > This sense of kinship felt by the Jewish people may be more of a “mystical” experience than a rationally definable one. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why Jews have never quite been able to fit into the convenient categories used by historians or sociologists to defines nations, races, religions, and other social groupings. Except for the fact that Jews obviously do not constitute a race (for race is a biological designation), the Jews are _not just_ a religious faith, even though they are that; and they are _not just_ a nation, even though they are that too, according to definitions of the word “nation.” The problem is usually resolved by using the term “people” instead of either “faith” or “nation.” ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/7 "2002-07-28T21:06:35Z")
Let’s note too that “Jewish” was used as a distinct US racial/ethnic/quasi-national quota category into the 1940’s for immigration purposes. Jews were not considered white (nor were Italians, IIRC). I don’t know to what extent the “white” category intersected with the “Aryan” category. Blalron, Judaism allows converts. However, it doesn’t seek them. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/8 "2002-07-28T21:10:49Z")
\*\*To add further confusion, while one may wish to identify Jews as only those people who are adherents to Judaism, there is still the problem that other people may not permit such a limit: “Jews” in Central Europe during WWII included anyone with even a single (great-?)grandparent who had been an observant Jew–even if everyone else in one’s ancestry were Gentiles. \*\* tomndebb, This was brought home to me very forcefully when I was about 20, and a friend said, “You can argue all you like about what makes a Jew, but when they come for the Jews, they’re coming for you.” “Race” is being pretty well dismantled by biologists these days. In the social sciences, we’re more apt to speak in terms of ethnicity and culture. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/9 "2002-07-28T23:12:49Z")
Forgive me for any ignorance here, but what happened to the word ‘Hebrew’? Wouldn’t that be the correct term for the ethnic group, while ‘Jewish’ would be used to identify the religion? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/10 "2002-07-28T23:42:04Z")
Hebrew is correctly used for the [l]language\*. Hebrew has been used to indicate the ethnic group as noted in the Tanakh/Old Testament as a synonym for Israelite–and, thus, the ethnic peoples who invaded Canaan. Unfortunately, Hebrew is a favorite term employed by anti-semitic hate-mongers, so I am not sure that it is the best choice when referring in English to the ethnic group in the year 2002. (There is also the issue that “the” ethnic group includes separate groups such as the Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and those who never lived in Europe (the term for whom I cannot now recall).) The inhabitants of Israel are currently called _Israelis_, with _Israelites_ being reserved for the inhabitants of 2,000+ years ago, so I would tend to not use Hebrew to discuss any current populations. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2002, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/11 "2002-07-28T23:45:24Z")
I think it’s worth keeping in mind that the question is basically one of semantics. The answer to the question basically depends on how you define the term “Jew.” ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/12 "2002-07-29T00:58:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \*The general consensus from the discussion on these boards is that Judaism is best described as a _tribe._ Right. And, a Jew might well ask a new acquaintance, “Are you a member of the tribe?” or even. “Are you an M. O. T.?” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/13 "2002-07-29T04:22:25Z")
Some links: Probably the most comprehensive review of the studies related to genetic evidence of Jewish origins in any one place - [http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html](http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html) Short version - the group of people that call themselves Jews are far from homogenous in their origins. But if you like the nitty gritty of studies, this is the place to look. Wow, wotta site. A page from a simple site that disputes some basic myths about antisemitism and Judiaism - [http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/yjd05600.htm](http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/yjd05600.htm) States the same in simple terms but I love the photos showing Jews of all types. An organization called Kulanu - [http://www.kulanu.org](http://www.kulanu.org) - which is devoted to helping the “lost Jews” (and those who wish to be found). They publish a book called “Jews in Places You Never Thought Of”. Understanding this organization"s mindset helps one understand the depth of that tribal identity. These various peoples are Black African, Indian, Portugese, Spanish, Mexican, Chinese, etc. Kulanu is interested in those who have practiced Judiasm isolated from the rest of Jewish culture, in those who have Jewish roots that they are just rediscovering but have been unaware of (and who may have no interest in religious practice), and in those who are coming to Judiaism as converts. All are part of the mishpacha, the family, and it is other Jews’ obligation to help them. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/14 "2002-07-29T06:42:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **Unfortunately, Hebrew is a favorite term employed by anti-semitic hate-mongers, so I am not sure that it is the best choice when referring in English to the ethnic group in the year 2002.** Oh. I didn’t know that. Apologies, once again, for my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/15 "2002-07-29T13:23:37Z")
I can’t see anything for which to apologize (that you aren’t hanging out reading hate literature?). I’m not even sure how Jews feel about the term, aside from the language–it may have quite neutral connotations. It is simply a word I would avoid because of the context where I have seen it used. ---
**Author:** ![Halo13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Halo13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Halo13)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/16 "2002-07-30T14:31:25Z")
According to modern dictionaries a persons ‘race’ is based on common ancestory, family and ethnical stock, in fact my dictionary makes no mention of religion at all. I don’t see myself as any specific race, I’m a bit of a mongrel (mix). As a child I was lucky to have never been expossed to religious indoctrination. Being an Australian decendent of German, Irish and Welsh Immigrants the best I can claim is ‘anglo-saxon’. Were I to accept Judaism I would not all of a suddenly go from what I am to a member of a ‘jewish race’. I find claims of a Jewish ‘race’ to be grosely elitist and egocentric, racist in that a persons ethnic background should be some how forgotten of over ridden by the magical transformation that takes place when a person accepts that faith (after all, what race could be better then the mythical jewish ‘race’?). Jewish people are from all over, they come in all shapes and sizes, they come from numerious ethnic backgrounds and for this reason they are in no legitimate sence a ‘race’. While some are able to call subscribers to a particaular religion a ‘race’ due to their own definitions of certain terms, contempary interpretations of the word ‘race’ from authoritive sources such as this english dictionary in my hand do not support such use of the word. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/17 "2002-07-30T15:56:24Z")
**Halo13** , I don’t think anyone posting to this thread is in disagreement with your general comments. Clearly, the Jews are not a homogeneous genetic group. I’m not exactly sure what point you are making, however, with this statement: > [@](#): > > I find claims of a Jewish ‘race’ to be grosely elitist and egocentric, racist in that a persons ethnic background should be some how forgotten of over ridden by the magical transformation that takes place when a person accepts that faith (after all, what race could be better then the mythical jewish ‘race’?). Jewish people do not tend to wander around proclaiming themselves a “race.” On those occasions when a Jewish speaker uses the phrase “Jewish race” it is nearly always in the sense of the _original_ meaning of the word: a group of people, descended (physically or spiritually) from a common ancestor (actual or legendary). The Jews are certainly the spiritual descendants of Abraham, who is referred to as _Avraham Avinu_, “Abraham our Father.” This is true regardless whether a person is descended directly from Abraham and Isaac or whether they are descended from a cousin or slave of Abram who accompained Abram on the journey from Ur to Canaan, or whether they converted last week. Rather than a statement of “racial purity,” the phrase “Jewish race” is simply an acknowledgement of the age of their common (spiritual) heritage. If your dictionary provides _only_ the definition relying on ethnicity, I suggest you need a better dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-a-race-or-a-religion-or-both/121269/18 "2002-07-30T18:18:16Z")
Jews are a religion. The definition of race or ethnicity is a little too restrictive to describe the criteria of Judaism. The best way to frame the definition of “who is a Jew” is to say Jews are an extended _family_. We are willing to adopt those who wish to be adopted, and we consider them as if they were always one of us. However, those who were born into the family are never considered to have left.