# Are Jews going to hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2001, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361 "2001-04-26T01:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/21 "2001-04-26T17:50:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > \*\* > > > > The actual commandment that gentiles must follow, **Freyr** is not a positive commandment (“Thou shalt worship…”) but a negative one. Thus, a gentile is forbidden (according to Jewish law) from engaging in idolatry. However, he is allowed to believe in a “partnership” of God and his local deities. So, as long as you don’t actively worship other gods without including Him as well, you’re OK on that count.\*\* > > Zev, > I’m going to ask for a site here. If the commandment were positive (“You shall worship G-d”), I can see how that would work. “I do…I worship G-d and other gods”, but the formulation is, like you said, negative (“You shall not worship idols”), so anybody who worshiped both G-d and idols would still be breaking the commandment, right? \*\* I’m 99% certain that this (that non-Jews are allowed to believe in a _shutfus_ (“partnership”)) is according to the Rambam (Maimonides). I will check in my _Mishneh Torah_ but it will have to wait until I get home. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/22 "2001-04-26T18:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > In short, the seven Noahide commandments are: > Eating the flesh of a living animal Does this mean my gentile college roommate who ate live goldfish is going to hell? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/23 "2001-04-26T19:22:26Z")
I’m surprised nobody has said this yet… **Q:** Are Jews going to hell? **A:** No, because there is no such place. Another public service message from the Institute of the Blatantly Obvious. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/24 "2001-04-26T19:59:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 2nd Law \* > \*\* > Does this mean my gentile college roommate who ate live goldfish is going to hell? \*\* I don’t know. I’m not God. However, you have to realize one thing about Judaism. We don’t (for the most part) believe in an “eternity in Hell” for sinners. If you do a sin, you are punished (whether in this world or the afterlife). After your punishment, it’s over. In Judaism, except for the truly ultra-wicked, no one spends more than 12 months in Hell. So, if your roommate committed this sin (if, of course, he knew it was a sin), then, in some way, he will be punished for it. It may be hell, it may be a punishement in the here and now. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/25 "2001-04-26T20:08:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > I’m 99% certain that this (that non-Jews are allowed to believe in a _shutfus_ (“partnership”)) is according to the Rambam (Maimonides). I will check in my _Mishneh Torah_ but it will have to wait until I get home. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* Thanks…I tried to check from work myself, but you’d be suprised how few of the Rambam’s books can be found online ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/26 "2001-04-26T21:40:45Z")
Apparently, I was wrong as far as the Rambam goes. He clearly states ([\*Hilchos M’lachim U’Milchamos 9:2 \*](http://www1.snunit.k12.il/kodesh/mtr/mlci009.html#1) - link requires Hebrew fonts enabled on your browser) that I am wrong – that the same standards for idolatry apply for Jews and non-Jews. However, I am positive that there is a major codifier that allows a gentile to worship God together with other deities. I’ll have to do more research. (BTW – I never would have even thought that the _Mishneh Torah_ was available online until you mentioned it. Thanks!) Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/27 "2001-04-27T02:43:31Z")
… but here goes. **Captain Amazing** , I found the source. It’s the Ramah to Orach Chaim 156:1. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![kiffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/d78d45/32.png) [@kiffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kiffa)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/28 "2001-04-27T03:05:33Z")
isn’t there some rule about 144,000 somebodies going to heaven - only 144,000 and not a single person more. Urphmf. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/29 "2001-04-27T04:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kiffa \* > \*\*isn’t there some rule about 144,000 somebodies going to heaven - only 144,000 and not a single person more. Urphmf. \*\* Nope. That’s the J’s Witnesses. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/30 "2001-04-27T04:24:58Z")
The 144,000 number is from a couple of different chapters in Revelation; [Revelation 7](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+7&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off) and [Revelation 14](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+14&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off). The figure from Revelation 7 is clearly referring to that portion of the Jews who will convert to the worship of Christ (the original Jews for Jesus, as it were); Revelation 14 seems to be a reference to that portion of the Gentiles who will convert. In both cases “144,000” (12 squared times 1,000) is a Heap Big Symbolic Number, and probably even the most literal minded of fundamentalists would not see it as a numerically accurate tally of the number of converts, but rather as a numerologically significant way of saying “lots and lots (but not everybody)”. (Similarly, even the really fundamentalist types don’t think that [Revelation 13:1-2](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+13:1-2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off) means that a couple of mutant Godzilla-style critters are going to stomp on major world cities, but rather that this is a coded reference to the Roman Empire or the Roman Catholic Church or the European Union or 'N Sync or something.) It should also be pointed out that the chronology and so forth of Revelation is sufficiently confused that it’s not at _all_ clear if these 288,000 people from chapters 7 and 14 are the only people who will be saved or what. If the noted theologian Tim LaHaye is correct, heathens such as myself will still have an opportunity to convert _after_ the Rapture–but maybe the 288,000 Special People will get to lord it over the rest of us in Heaven or something. (“_We_ converted just based on the Word of God alone, whereas _you_ guys waited around until all the born-agains vanished into thin air and the Antichrist took over the U.N., and _then_ you slapped yourselves on the forehead and said ‘D’oh! I guess we were wrong after all!’, when it was sort of _obvious_ by that point, now wasn’t it?”) ---
**Author:** ![berdollos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@berdollos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/berdollos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/31 "2001-04-27T06:13:40Z")
God’s covenant with the Jewish people is alive and well. Judaism has not been replaced by Christianity or by any other religion. God has chosen his people to have the honor of observing his commandments and being a civilizing influence. That is why all tyrants are anti-Semitic. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/32 "2001-04-27T13:46:33Z")
In all curiousness, where does it say that hell only can last 12 months at the most? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/33 "2001-04-27T14:17:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by berdollos \* > \*\*God has chosen his people to have the honor of observing his commandments and being a civilizing influence. That is why all tyrants are anti-Semitic. \*\* Isn’t that overly broad? Francisco Franco, for example, wasn’t particularly anti-Semitic. Neither was the Imperial Japanese government in WWII. Genghis Khan, from what I remember, wasn’t either. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/34 "2001-04-27T15:34:31Z")
Good lord, what does it matter? Why, are _you_ less content to go there if you know certain people would be allowed in as well? Ick. My opinion–that’s God’s job. God’ll decide. My speculation on the whole thing is irrelevant. And if just believing in Jesus is the only criteria, there’s gonna be a whole lotta hateful people up there. I have faith–God’ll sort it all out. Me? I’m going to make like the good Samaritan, be as good to others as I can, obey the golden rule, believe in that which makes sense to me, and be content with God’s decision. (Although all this discussion is interesting–thanks for the discussion Zev et al!) Snicks ---
**Author:** ![msc75](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc79bd/32.png) [@msc75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msc75)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/35 "2001-04-27T23:53:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Hopefully, someone will help me with a site here. > In the Bible it says that all God’s people (Jews) will be saved (in a day, it says) at the end of the world. > SO yes, I think they are all going to wind up in Heaven (barring being a horrible murderer or something) > \*\* Actually, from what I remember, only a select 144,000 Jews will actually make it to heaven. 12,000 from the 12 tribes. ---
**Author:** ![J\_s\_Friend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@J\_s\_Friend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J_s_Friend)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/36 "2001-04-28T00:24:57Z")
So if I convert to Christianity (If I sit down and solely worship Jesus as my savor) just so that I could get a ticket past the pearly gates would I still get in? Does G-D question motives or is he just going for mass numbers? ---
**Author:** ![msc75](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc79bd/32.png) [@msc75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msc75)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/37 "2001-04-28T00:49:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by berdollos \* > \*\*God’s covenant with the Jewish people is alive and well. > Judaism has not been replaced by Christianity or by any other religion. God has chosen his people to have the honor of observing his commandments and being a civilizing influence. That is why all tyrants are anti-Semitic. \*\* That’s absurd. While a good number of “tyrants” are anti-Semitic, many have not been. I don’t think the Chinese give a flying fu\*k about the Jews, no offense. Tyrants care about world domination. ---
**Author:** ![berdollos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@berdollos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/berdollos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/38 "2001-04-28T01:25:27Z")
The Chinese communist dictators persecute those who believe in God and obey the 10 commandments or at least value them. Christians bear the brunt of this; there are precious few Jews if any left to be prosecuted. All tyrants and dictators want themselves first or the state first. Godly people worship God - not a tyrant or the state. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/39 "2001-04-28T01:39:45Z")
What does “Eating the flesh of a live animal” mean? Is it as self-explanatory as it looks? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2001, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361/40 "2001-04-28T01:43:50Z")
Berdollos: So where does that leave tyrants who base their legitimacy on religion? You don’t get much more tyrannical than Afghanistan’s Taliban, who are very, very, very religious. Or how about the Ayatollah Khomeini? Or the pre-war Japanese emperor, who was believed to be a direct descendent of the sun-goddess? Among the tools available to a tyrant, religion can be one of the more useful ones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-going-to-hell/63361.md?page=3)