# Are jobs obsolete? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207 "2011-09-13T22:03:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/41 "2011-09-21T23:19:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …as we automate and increase efficiency and productivity, what are people going to do? How about everybody works a 20-to-30-hour week instead of a 40±hour week? If that becomes the new norm, then everybody has a job, everything gets done, and we can spend the rest of the week consuming, as it were, and stimulating the demand side of the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/42 "2011-09-21T23:32:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > ..as we automate and increase efficiency and productivity, what are people going to do? > > -XT As they have always done - move on to the tasks they were never able to get to before. At no point does some say, “Gee! I guess we’re all done and can go home now!” Instead it’s more like, “Great! That’s done! Now we can tackle what I’ve always wanted to do all along!” ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/43 "2011-09-21T23:42:13Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Two negative points related to the growth of interactional work are: > A) Perhaps a large number of people can only work at transformational or transactional work and will not be able to perform interactional tasks; not everyone has what it takes to be a lawyer, a doctor or an engineer. > > B) Baumol’s cost disease\* may strike at interactional workers since the quantity of their production doesn’t go up much. They might be saved by the fact that it isn’t quantity alone that matters, but the total utility of their output, which is to say the quality of the average unit multiplied by the quantity of units produced. > > - [Baumol effect - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease) Another problem: not all interactional work is valued. I have a degree in professional communications, which covers stuff like tech writing, documentation, and information design. These are crucial skills that help bridge the gap between new technology and the user. But the people who do it are notably underpaid/overworked even in good times - because their expertise is “soft” and not quantifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/44 "2011-09-21T23:51:01Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I’m not seeing the connection between robot workers and comfortable life for the general population. As far as I can tell, higher and more efficient automation has historically tended to concentrate wealth in the hands of the owners and corporations while raising joblessness and unemployment levels, and lowering wealth, among most of the population. The movement to automation has been running full tilt since the dawn of the industrial revolution and getting faster as it goes. We’d all be poor and unemployed by now if your conclusions were correct. Instead, employment levels fluctuate over time, usually for reasons unrelated to automation, and per capita wealth generally increases. ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/45 "2011-09-22T00:06:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Wesley Clark** > In that scenario the robots would be doing the research into building better robots, curing diseases, space travel, etc. Robots aren’t going to be limited to menial tasks, they will be far better at academic and scientific pursuits than we are too in the medium term future (40 years or so from now as a WAG). I know it was a WAG, but I think I’m going to have to see a cite before I believe that. The problem with robots and computers to me is that, at this point, they are largely incapable of coming up with original ideas. What’s more, I seriously doubt they could grasp philosophy or psychology. But even if they did, what the hell, no reason we can’t work with them, and enjoy still more free time. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/46 "2011-09-22T09:55:12Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > The movement to automation has been running full tilt since the dawn of the industrial revolution and getting faster as it goes. We’d all be poor and unemployed by now if your conclusions were correct. Most of us _are_ poor and unemployed. Look out the window. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/47 "2011-09-22T10:57:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I take issue with one point in the OP’s linked article: That’s bull. \*Most \*people worked for their feudal masters. No. The family lived on a moderately self sufficient farm. The lord who held the land in fief more or less ‘rented’ the land to the peasant for a certain number of days corvee labor, and a percentage of the product of the land in plants and animals. In return for this land, and theoretical protection from the soldiers of other lords and outlaws, the lord got labor for his projects and plants and animals for his table. And before you start nit picking and getting nasty, yes the system did have abuses, every system has what the people in the system see as abuse. However, apparently jus primis nocte did not seem to actually exist in the sense of the lord getting to boff every girl prior to her wedding. It was actually a fee simple in coin or kind to allow the marriage to proceed. [it was apparently a way to keep track of land and belonging rights, sort of a property tax.] ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/48 "2011-09-22T11:11:03Z")
Look at it this way. Let’s say tomorrow it became illegal to use automatic traffic signals. And so at every junction, the state, or private companies, would have to pay a guy to stand there with red and green flags to coordinate traffic. That would create lots of jobs! Do you think it would help the american economy though? Having to pay lots of people for something that was virtually free before? Indeed having to _tie up_ labour doing something not very useful? The fact is automation is a net good. It allows mankind to achieve more with the same resources (or achieve the same goals with less resources). The fact that unemployment is high (though unless you live in Somalia, most _are not_ unemployed) is because many people are either not trained or trained in the equivalent of controlling traffic with flags. Generally this is an issue for governments, but it doesn’t help that individuals often want to resist change, rather than accept that what they used to do is no longer useful (and they should train for something else). ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/49 "2011-09-22T11:11:04Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > I may be one of the naive ones, but I am not sure I agree with this. I think a lot of people’s laziness can be attributed to the current capitalist economic system that values competition over mutual aid. Given the right environment, I don’t think people would just plateau because there was no incentive to make things better. In fact, with more freetime I think we could make even bigger advancements. There are a lot of brilliant people who are full of great ideas, but don’t have the time or resources to bring those ideas to fruition. Isn’t the whole antagonism vs mutual assistance part of that paper done by the mathematician that was the basis of Beautiful Mind? In a perfect world we would all live in arcologies that integrate industry, stores, schools, cultural opportunities and residences. We would have our basic needs supplied for, and some form of job [it could be go to school, go to university, show up at the temp office daily and go where needed, or have a permanent job because it takes a certain amount of education to do like medical imaging tech or doctor or IT support] though the job may only be for 1 day a week [man hours required divided amongst the available bodies] and you get your assigned ‘income’ [everybody gets paid the exact same amount] and you may spend your off work hours slacking off watching football, or you can volunteer to read to old folks and the blind, or some such ‘beneficial social behavior’ and get ‘service credits’ that can get you access to better benefits like a larger game system or whatnot, or if you are into gaming, you could make in game benefits like i pay my eve online account by industry in game. That would get everybody the basic living and an opportunity to get something better than the neighbor if you want to exert yourself. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/50 "2011-09-22T11:15:31Z")
Any effort to deal with this will require a much larger role for the government. Unfortunately, during the late 1960s and the 1970s most Americans lost confidence in the government, and never got it back. What we _could_ do is greatly shorten the work week, while greatly raising taxes on the rather small minority who have benefited by these changes. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/51 "2011-09-22T12:51:14Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > “By law, small businesses in most major industries were shut down and people had to work for officially sanctioned corporations instead.” I’m interested in the above contention (from the article quoted by the OP). If such a contention were made on the Dope, I’d say… “Cite?” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/52 "2011-09-22T21:38:36Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > In a perfect world we would all live in arcologies that integrate industry, stores, schools, cultural opportunities and residences. We would have our basic needs supplied for, and some form of job [it could be go to school, go to university, show up at the temp office daily and go where needed, or have a permanent job because it takes a certain amount of education to do like medical imaging tech or doctor or IT support] though the job may only be for 1 day a week [man hours required divided amongst the available bodies] and you get your assigned ‘income’ [everybody gets paid the exact same amount] and you may spend your off work hours slacking off watching football, or you can volunteer to read to old folks and the blind, or some such ‘beneficial social behavior’ and get ‘service credits’ that can get you access to better benefits like a larger game system or whatnot, or if you are into gaming, you could make in game benefits like i pay my eve online account by industry in game. > > That would get everybody the basic living and an opportunity to get something better than the neighbor if you want to exert yourself. Have you read WALDEN TWO, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/53 "2011-09-22T22:30:10Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Most of us _are_ poor and unemployed. Look out the window. In the nation in which I live, the unemployment over the last two decades has averaged 7%. Per capita GDP is 41K. Gini index 30.5. There is poverty and unemployment here, but at nothing like in your area. I’m sorry you live in such an unfortunate place, though, so please accept my condolences. Perhaps you could move. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/54 "2011-09-23T03:18:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Have you read WALDEN TWO, by any chance? No, just the original Walden. I suppose that it is much simpler to live in a shack and still schlep home to family for laundry and dinner while writing about the bucolic pleasures of simple life. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/55 "2011-09-23T13:33:45Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > No, just the original Walden. I suppose that it is much simpler to live in a shack and still schlep home to family for laundry and dinner while writing about the bucolic pleasures of simple life. See, the gimmick in WALDEN TWO is that a small and self-sufficient _ **community** _ goes for the simple life by dividing up the minimum necessary work and assigning credits, such that (a) everyone puts in a mere four-hour day to keep the whole thing up and running, and so (b) it’s no problem if you want to spend your spare time reading philosophy or taking guitar lessons or putting on a play, just so long as you put in enough hours on the farm – or washing the windows or reading to kids or whatever – before going for that walk in the woods or settling in for a chess match with your neighbor or heading back home to pen the next chapter of your novel. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207/56 "2011-09-23T15:20:47Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > See, the gimmick in WALDEN TWO is that a small and self-sufficient _ **community** _ goes for the simple life by dividing up the minimum necessary work and assigning credits, such that (a) everyone puts in a mere four-hour day to keep the whole thing up and running, and so (b) it’s no problem if you want to spend your spare time reading philosophy or taking guitar lessons or putting on a play, just so long as you put in enough hours on the farm – or washing the windows or reading to kids or whatever – before going for that walk in the woods or settling in for a chess match with your neighbor or heading back home to pen the next chapter of your novel. Of course this entire premise is nonsense in a world of six billion people. All of the products people use, the food they eat, the vehicles they use to transport themselves, the energy they use, the clothes they wear and everything else in their daily lives is the product of a complex global network. Someone has to do those jobs. And given the billions of poor people around the world, it seems like there are a lot more jobs that need doing. The entire premise of the article in the OP appears to based on the ramblings someone who has no idea how stuff actually works. 50 years ago they predicted that the work week would only be 4 hours long. > [@SecondJudith](#): > > Most of us _are_ poor and unemployed. Look out the window. I see city full of people who mostly seem to be working on something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jobs-obsolete/596207.md?page=2)