# Are leaders getting worse? Were they always this bad? How we make better ones? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069 "2023-03-12T16:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069/22 "2023-03-13T15:59:11Z")
Do most people even want leaders? Who wants to be a follower? I think most of just want somebody that will do the stuff we want them to do. “You’re not the boss of me!” is the modern inclination: not “Tell us what to do!” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069/23 "2023-03-13T16:21:21Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > I’m sure we all have our own opinions on the last few, but it’s been decades now where basically half the country hates the president at any given time, red, blue, or otherwise. That’s not necessarily the fault of the leaders. Take Obama: he was popular enough to be re-elected in 2012, mighrt have been re-electable in 2016 if it weren’t for the Twenty-Second Amendment; and of those who hate(d) him, relatively few did so, I think, because of any genuine lack of character or leadership ability. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069/24 "2023-03-13T16:36:47Z")
If you want to work FOR the government, you have to jump through some hoops: A reasonable level of education, no criminal convictions, no affiliation to extremist groups etc. Perhaps we (on both sides of the Atlantic) need to make prospective politicians pass some basic checks and an entrance exam. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069/25 "2023-03-13T17:24:06Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Perhaps we (on both sides of the Atlantic) need to make prospective politicians pass some basic checks and an entrance exam. Every time a country has ever put checks on who can run for office, it’s was really just to make sure a particular political opponent doesn’t qualify. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069/26 "2023-03-13T18:08:33Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > This is the kind of complaint that could have been made 20, 50, or 2000 years ago, rather like the one about young people being disrespectful. You mean it wasn’t? > [@msmith537](#): > > For examples of good leadership, I would look at someone like Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He is doing what he believes is in the best interest of his country, in spite of overwhelming hardship and personal risk. I will definitely agree to this, how has he not gotten a Nobel for it? > [@Reply](#): > > And then between only have bad leaders to choose from and the masses having no critical eye for most of them (and/or the power to choose better ones even if they saw through the bullshit), seems like we’re just kinda stuck lol. When the money dries up, is it all just going to collapse on itself? In my very small personal opinion - There are people left in the country who do give a damn, we are just few and far between. I actually have a freaking _degree_ in political science, and back in 2015 and 16 was comparing the country to being Weimar era Germany at that specific point in time - very specifically about Trump and the various Republican sorts, and was roundly drizzled upon by the nasty slobber of their followers telling me that I was full of shite and I didn’t know _anything_ about politics. As to things collapsing when the money dries up, most likely. The average US citizen currently has nothing in savings, is laden with debts and things are not looking good for anybody that doesn’t have serious money stashed somewhere. The current bank collapse right now isn’t helping anything, just creating panic in people wondering if they have the money to survive. I know we certainly don’t, we are seriously praying mrAru’s job doesn’t go tits up. And this is saying a _lot_ - we are not wasteful with our money, certainly we don’t splurge on much, though our vacation savings that was supposed to go to our anniversary cruise thankfully went to paying on some medical bills [though we still owe roughly $80 000 but considering that is 2 bouts with colorectal cancer, 1 with breast cancer, 2 major and 1 relatively minor operations, and 3 bouts of chemo and radiation/chemo and a whole assortment of extra drugs [a lifetime with immodium, letrazol, zofran and various pain control options]] > [@Reply](#): > > Democracy isn’t really working though, is it? Seems like it’s just circling the drain and that we’re headed towards global authoritarianism regardless. Thus, if we must have a capital L leader, can’t they at least have the capital G too…? Why must our dictators be mediocre too? Well, democracy could go well if we didn’t let them fuck up our educational system. When they went backwards to less education and more training manual workers to follow orders and not question things we hand our government over to the people financing things. Unless we start education instead of brainwashing we won’t have another Great Generation. We are practically back to just eneding that little 1 room school house, with people taught ‘readin, writin’ and rithmatic to elementary school levels [kindergarten through 6th grade, with 7th -10th going to lower level management and 11th-12 going to those getting ready for college - to become military officers and big management types, those going to be running the plants/factories. Run history back to the 1700/1800s and you see that sort of world. > [@bob\_2](#): > > Perhaps we (on both sides of the Atlantic) need to make prospective politicians pass some basic checks and an entrance exam. I wouldn’t mind them being able to actually pass the American Citizen exam. Hell, I would even take someone who could pass an 8th grade civics exam. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069/27 "2023-03-13T18:23:24Z")
Great leaders from the past like James Buchanan? And you should read about what people said about Lincoln. Grant was a great general but an awful president. In _Generation of Vipers_ from 1942 Philip Wylie decries those idiots in Washington just like people do today. You’d hardly know it was the Greatest Generation from reading him. People see the past through rose colored glasses. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069/28 "2023-03-13T18:32:22Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The Party system is basically broken again. The Electoral College is a huge problem we’ll probably never get rid off, but should. I think this is something that’s cyclical. We come up with some system of government that we think will work well. And it often does work well, for a few years or decades, as the original “Founding Fathers” type of people are invested in showing that the Great New Society is a success. But then people start noticing some flaws in the new system, where things don’t work quite the way they were supposed to. This isn’t an immediate concern, since most people are still invested in making things work. But eventually, someone comes along who sees the flaw, and decides to exploit it for their own benefit. And over time, more and more such flaws are discovered, and exploited, until suddenly we all decide that the entire system is corrupt, and we need a new revolution to fix everything that’s gone wrong, and come up with a _new_ Great New Society that has no such flaws. Wash, rinse and repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069/29 "2023-03-13T18:40:03Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Seems like it’s just circling the drain and that we’re headed towards global authoritarianism regardless. Thus, if we must have a capital L leader, can’t they at least have the capital G too…? Why must our dictators be mediocre too? The problem is, there’s no guarantee that the Great Leader _actually will_ be great, or even a leader, but it’s 100% certain that some people (_cough_Donald Trump_cough_) will _claim_ that they are a “Great Leader”, and other idiots will believe them. The fundamental problem is, the skills needed to rise to the top of any particular hierarchy often are not the skills needed to actually govern effectively. Most self-styled “Great Leaders” rose to the top of the pile by lying their asses off to their deluded followers, and manipulating others who were trying the same thing. But in the end, when you have to actually make the trains run on time, lying doesn’t get the job done. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069/30 "2023-03-13T18:49:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Grant was a great general but an awful president. Nitpick, historians are upgrading his presidency. See Chernow’s bio for an example [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-leaders-getting-worse-were-they-always-this-bad-how-we-make-better-ones/981069.md?page=1)