# Are liberals really more "evolved" than conservatives? Scientific study suggests answer is yes. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383 "2011-02-23T21:18:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/161 "2011-02-27T15:31:17Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > In Oakland there were 12.89 violent crimes committed last year per 1,000 residents, and 56.20 property crimes. > [Oakland, CA Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout](http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/oakland/crime/) > > In nearby San Francisco there were 7.44 violent crimes per 1,000 residents, and 47.85 property crimes. > [San Francisco Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout](http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime/) > > At the bottom of the San Francisco Bay is San Jose. In San Jose there were 3.79 violent crimes per 1,000 residents, and 25.87 property crimes. > [San Jose Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout](http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-jose/crime/) > > In Oakland the black population is 30.8%. > [Oakland, California - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland,_California) > > In San Francisco the black population is 7.3%. > [San Francisco - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco#Demographics) > > In San Jose the black population is 3.0%. > [San Jose, California - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Jose,_California#Demographics) > > Because liberals choose to ignore the relationship between a high black population and a high crime rate, it cannot be said that they respect facts more than conservatives. Liberals and conservatives tend to ignore, or even be ignorant of, facts that conflict with their policy goals. You’d have to have a lot more statistical data than that to prove anything. Where’s the causality? For instance, Oakland has more than three times as many blacks as San Francisco, and yet the crime rate is not three times higher, or even close. This kind of limited over simplified data proves nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/162 "2011-02-27T16:05:39Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > In Oakland there were 12.89 violent crimes committed last year per 1,000 residents, and 56.20 property crimes. > [Oakland, CA Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout](http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/oakland/crime/) > > In nearby San Francisco there were 7.44 violent crimes per 1,000 residents, and 47.85 property crimes. > [San Francisco Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout](http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime/) > > At the bottom of the San Francisco Bay is San Jose. In San Jose there were 3.79 violent crimes per 1,000 residents, and 25.87 property crimes. > [San Jose Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout](http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-jose/crime/) > > In Oakland the black population is 30.8%. > [Oakland, California - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland,_California) > > In San Francisco the black population is 7.3%. > [San Francisco - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco#Demographics) > > In San Jose the black population is 3.0%. > [San Jose, California - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Jose,_California#Demographics) > > Because liberals choose to ignore the relationship between a high black population and a high crime rate, it cannot be said that they respect facts more than conservatives. Liberals and conservatives tend to ignore, or even be ignorant of, facts that conflict with their policy goals. You’re unintentionally proving the OP’s claim. Firstly, correlation is not causation. Secondly, the correlation you want to make doesn’t work with the examples you gave. The crime rates of low income whites and Hispanics in Oakland are also going to be higher than those of high income whites in San Francisco. There just isn’t any way to sort this out, and a smart person wouldn’t use this kind of data to make his case. Also, you’re wrong about black American genetics and the test score gap: [http://knol.google.com/k/the-u-s-black-white-test-score-gap-e2#](http://knol.google.com/k/the-u-s-black-white-test-score-gap-e2#) I suspect that you’re just not smart enough to follow the arguments made in the linked paper. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/163 "2011-02-27T16:24:06Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > You’re unintentionally proving the OP’s claim. Pretty much across the board. It’s kinda freaky. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/164 "2011-02-27T16:31:21Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > You’d have to have a lot more statistical data than that to prove anything. Where’s the causality? For instance, Oakland has more than three times as many blacks as San Francisco, and yet the crime rate is not three times higher, or even close. > This kind of limited over simplified data proves nothing. He’s pretty much just throwing up some stats [without drawing any casual connections](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spurious_relationship) for us. I suppose it is our job to the grunt work; again, I’ll try to help him: **Violent Crime (per capita)**:…Oakland \> San Francisco \> San Jose **Property Crime (per capita)**:…Oakland ~ San Francisco \> San Jose **Black population** :…Oakland \> San Francisco ~ San Jose Thus “blacks” are a breed of biologically violent/retarded criminals. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/165 "2011-02-27T16:37:18Z")
Trying to tease out cause and effect from the complex social soup of race, ethnicity, socio-economic class, rural/urban lifestyles, etc. is a tricky process. Not to mention the fact that our legal history is tainted with a bias towards criminalizing activities which are more common in the Black populations than in White ones. But it certainly ripe for folk- and pop-science analysis that is commonly seen when discussing the subject. And when someone comes along and states that racial groups in the US are comparable to subspecies or breeds of domesticated animals… well, that’s just factually incorrect, as I stated above. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/166 "2011-02-27T18:30:10Z")
Perhaps the least “evolved” notion in politics is the status tribalism where you try to convince folks that the _people_ in your own tribe are better (and higher status) than the other - rather than arguing that your _ideas_ are better. Tribes of monkeys fling poo at the monkeys on the other side of the river, and plenty of folks, as exemplified the OP, haven’t evolved far from that “thought” process. That self-styled political commentators engage in this stuff is understandable - it’s hardwired in our primitive monkey brain and it’s emotionally pleasurable - but let’s not kid ourselves that that sort of rhetoric has any more truth-value than our primitive physical knee-jerk reflex. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/167 "2011-02-27T22:32:30Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Well, yes, that’s why they do _that_, but _why_ do they do it, why do they scream “fraud”, if not to marginalize climatologists and their findings? Isn’t that an attempt at suppressing the facts? What does **New Deal Democrat** think the purpose of all that is? I am unaware that conservatives have attempted to get those who believe, as I do, in global warming. Liberals have succeeded in getting those who believe, as I do, that genetics is more important than anything else in determining ability levels fired. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/168 "2011-02-27T22:34:45Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > You’d have to have a lot more statistical data than that to prove anything. Where’s the causality? For instance, Oakland has more than three times as many blacks as San Francisco, and yet the crime rate is not three times higher, or even close. > This kind of limited over simplified data proves nothing. There does not have to be a one to one correlation between black population and crime, but there is a correlation. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/169 "2011-02-27T22:39:53Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Perhaps the least “evolved” notion in politics is the status tribalism where you try to convince folks that the _people_ in your own tribe are better (and higher status) than the other - rather than arguing that your _ideas_ are better. Tribes of monkeys fling poo at the monkeys on the other side of the river, and plenty of folks, as exemplified the OP, haven’t evolved far from that “thought” process. Though I can’t deny that I felt a small sense of smug superiority when I posted that OP, I’m also filled with concern for the well being of conservatives and for our society as a whole. If it’s possible for conservatives to continue to express their ideas with less fear, less hate, and less dogmatism, I’d love to figure out how to encourage that. In fact, the same thing goes for all of humanity. Liberals are not immune to these negative traits. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/170 "2011-02-27T23:07:52Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Also, you’re wrong about black American genetics and the test score gap: > > [http://knol.google.com/k/the-u-s-black-white-test-score-gap-e2#](http://knol.google.com/k/the-u-s-black-white-test-score-gap-e2#) > > I suspect that you’re just not smart enough to follow the arguments made in the linked paper. Few “racial” issues are as politically charged as the U.S. Black/White test-score gap… Many…insist that the gap is at least partly genetic. This notion has been the most thoroughly demolished of all… The U.S. Black/White test-score gap undoubtedly exists. It is real, measurable, and its measurement is easily replicated. It does not merely appear in one specific test nor in just a few particular tests. The gap appears in every test of those mental abilities that are important to success in Western culture… The U.S. Black/White test-score gap lacks a “racial” genetic component… Americans are taught from infancy to conceptualize their unique endogamous color line as being biologically based; that Blacks are genetically different from Whites in a sense deeper than superficial appearance… No gap appears between the scores of unassimilated first-generation immigrant grade-school children from sub-Saharan Africa and those of White children… The gap is no longer shrinking. The B/W test-score gap shrank during the 8 years from 1980 to 1988… The gap shrank to a minimum in 1988 but then widened again and is now almost back to its 1970 level. * * * This is a more honest treatment of black white differences in test scores and academic performance than many I have read. The author acknowledges that the differences exist, that they persist, and that those who draw attention to them should not be dismissed as racists. Nevertheless, the author’s assertion, “No gap appears between the scores of unassimilated first-generation immigrant grade-school children from sub-Saharan Africa and those of White children,” requires substantial documentation. It runs counter to everything I have read. What I have read is that the average IQ for black Africans is 70, while the average for black Americans is 85, and the average for whites is 100. It is conceivable to me that in the past, when African immigration was limited, most black Africans who move to the United States were professionals whose children inherited their high IQs. I would be interested in reading a recent study with a fairly large population sample. Also, I do not believe that, “Americans are taught from infancy to conceptualize their unique endogamous color line as being biologically based; that Blacks are genetically different from Whites in a sense deeper than superficial appearance.” My parents taught me that differences between black and white intelligence and behavior were slight, and due to racial discrimination. What my parents taught me seems to be the politically correct consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/171 "2011-02-27T23:23:39Z")
You claim that the stats provided don’t conform to what you’ve read. Perhaps that’s because you’ve spent far too much time treating The Bell Curve as if it wasn’t racist pseudoscientific claptrap. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/172 "2011-02-28T00:29:35Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > You’re unintentionally proving the OP’s claim. > > Firstly, correlation is not causation. > > Secondly, the correlation you want to make doesn’t work with the examples you gave. The crime rates of low income whites and Hispanics in Oakland are also going to be higher than those of high income whites in San Francisco. There just isn’t any way to sort this out, and a smart person wouldn’t use this kind of data to make his case. > > Also, you’re wrong about black American genetics and the test score gap: > > [http://knol.google.com/k/the-u-s-black-white-test-score-gap-e2#](http://knol.google.com/k/the-u-s-black-white-test-score-gap-e2#) 1. If you adjust for SES you still get a large disparity. See pages 32, 33 of Walsh’s “Crime: A Biosocial Analysis”. Jews and East asian migrants have consistently had lower crime rates than other groups, regardless of SES. > **[Race and Crime](https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=vgHgNsmZ3vsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=anthony%2Bwalsh%2Brace%2Bcrime&source=bl&ots=PB10bXWQn9&sig=VeMz6AUBKSK94_QTTc1dn2yMVys&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false)** > > This book examines the incendiary issue of racial variation in crime rates in the United States and in many other countries using a variety of data sources. It examines the latest genetic data asserting the reality of the concept of race, and various... 1. That link about the test score gap is unconvincing and fails to address the point that heritability rises with age (hence Sandra Scarr later acknowledging the results of the transracial adoption study at age 17, could be taken equally as support for the genetic explanation). For a more complete view of the debate you should probably start at the June 2005 issue of Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, Vol. 11, No. 2. www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/173 "2011-02-28T19:54:55Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I am unaware that conservatives have attempted to get those who believe, as I do, in global warming. Get those who believe in global warming to do what? Your sentence is incomplete. Also, I can’t imagine any way you could complete it that would answer my question, so I’ll ask it again. If conservatives aren’t trying to suppress the findings of scientists by declaring those scientists frauds, what are they doing? I’m calling your claim that conservatives don’t suppress scientific findings false. You’ve had three opportunities to defend your claim, kindly do so. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/174 "2011-03-01T05:28:16Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I am unaware that conservatives have attempted to get those who believe, as I do, in global warming. > > Liberals have succeeded in getting those who believe, as I do, that genetics is more important than anything else in determining ability levels fired. The first sentence should read, “I am unaware that conservatives have attempted to get those who believe, as I do, in global warming fired.” ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/175 "2011-03-01T05:31:13Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Get those who believe in global warming to do what? Your sentence is incomplete. Also, I can’t imagine any way you could complete it that would answer my question, so I’ll ask it again. If conservatives aren’t trying to suppress the findings of scientists by declaring those scientists frauds, what are they doing? I’m calling your claim that conservatives don’t suppress scientific findings false. You’ve had three opportunities to defend your claim, kindly do so. Look at comment #174. It is not dangerous to argue in public that man made global warming is happening. It can be dangerous to argue that racial differences in crime rates and intelligence are caused biologically. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/176 "2011-03-01T05:33:41Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > 1. If you adjust for SES you still get a large disparity. See pages 32, 33 of Walsh’s “Crime: A Biosocial Analysis”. Jews and East asian migrants have consistently had lower crime rates than other groups, regardless of SES. > > [Race and Crime: A Biosocial Analysis - Anthony Walsh - Google Books](http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=vgHgNsmZ3vsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=anthony+walsh+race+crime&source=bl&ots=PB10bXWQn9&sig=VeMz6AUBKSK94_QTTc1dn2yMVys&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false) > > 1. That link about the test score gap is unconvincing and fails to address the point that heritability rises with age (hence Sandra Scarr later acknowledging the results of the transracial adoption study at age 17, could be taken equally as support for the genetic explanation). For a more complete view of the debate you should probably start at the June 2005 issue of Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, Vol. 11, No. 2. > > www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/ Thank you for these links. They are fascinating. Unfortunately, the first does not go beyond page 24. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/177 "2011-03-01T05:46:25Z")
Until there are no sanctions whatsoever against investigating and publishing biological reasons for racial differences in crime and intelligence it cannot be said that liberals are more respectful of facts and reason than conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/178 "2011-03-01T13:44:10Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Look at comment #174. > > It is not dangerous to argue in public that man made global warming is happening. It can be dangerous to argue that racial differences in crime rates and intelligence are caused biologically. Instead of crying about how your racism is frowned upon, howzabout answering my question? I’ll repeat it: if conservative America isn’t claiming climatologists and their findings are fraudulent in an attempt to suppress them and their findings, why do they do it? Please note that this question does not concern itself with _The Bell Curve_ or your racism in any way. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/179 "2011-03-01T13:48:54Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Until there are no sanctions whatsoever against investigating and publishing biological reasons for racial differences in crime and intelligence it cannot be said that liberals are more respectful of facts and reason than conservatives. Consider it said. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383/180 "2011-03-01T14:13:35Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Instead of crying about how your racism is frowned upon, howzabout answering my question? I’ll repeat it: if conservative America isn’t claiming climatologists and their findings are fraudulent in an attempt to suppress them and their findings, why do they do it? Please note that this question does not concern itself with _The Bell Curve_ or your racism in any way. There is a difference between saying, “That’s fraudulent,” and suppressing one’s ability to say it. I am unaware of any climatologist who has lost his position for maintaining that global warming is happening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-liberals-really-more-evolved-than-conservatives-scientific-study-suggests-answer-is-yes/572383.md?page=10)