# Are lots of Catholics going to migrate to the Orthodox Church? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503 "2018-09-17T22:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/41 "2018-09-18T18:18:56Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > That may be true, but the exotic factor could also be part of its appeal. > > I’ll be honest, I have myself considered attending an Orthodox service, if not actually formally joining the religion. There’s something about the traditions of it that seems very alluring. And I can’t be the only one who gets this impression. > > Also, I ask again, do Orthodox sects actually go out and seek new members? not really, no. the orthodox church usually keeps its head down and doesn’t try to gain attention. there are some churches in the orthodox church of america tent that are not very ethnic. some of them under the antiochian umbrella are a bit more outgoing and open to converts. the traditions and canons of the orthodox church are in some ways more strict and in others more liberal. for example, orthodox church has divorce and allows 3 marriages (due to divorce or death), but no meat or dairy on wed.s or fri.s year around (there are about 5 wed.s and fri.s that allow meat per year); you are nearly vegan on and off for about half the year. i would think that that a catholic who would want to go to a different denomination, episcopal might fit best. although a lot of episcopalians went orthodox after women being ordained. they mostly went into the antiochian umbrella mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/42 "2018-09-18T19:11:15Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > I would say that Episcopalians/Anglicans are their natural resting point. They are very similar liturgically and not too far off theologically. Anglicanism/Episcopalianism would indeed seem the closest non-Roman church to the RCC. Anglicanism was founded as a middle way (“via media”) between the Catholics and Protestants, and has a foot on each side of the Protestant Reformation. The liturgy and creeds are very, very similar. As an Episcopalian, I’ve attended RCC mass and felt completely comfortable; and my EC congregation has a number of former Catholics who belong to it. The key differences are that the Anglicans have much less dogma or official teachings of the church than Catholics are used to, so you see a wide spectrum of theology – from very high church Anglo-Catholics to very liberal progressives to fairly conservative Evangelicals. The Anglican Communion has a titular head in the Archbishop of Canterbury, but the ABC holds nothing like the power or authority of the Pope. It’s not unheard of for Episcopalians to venerate saints or embrace other trappings of Roman Catholicism. And of course Roman Catholic baptisms and other sacraments are fully recognized by the Anglican church. Methodists, having broken off of Anglicanism later in the family tree of Christendom, are one more step removed, but along with Lutherans also attract their share of Catholic Church refugees. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/43 "2018-09-18T19:23:01Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Missouri Synod Lutherans might be the best bet for your hypothetical Catholic. I’d actually doubt that. LCMS tends to be very fundamentalist in its approach to Scripture, while Catholics are not. In addition, while the ELCA has been very open to a rapprochement with the Catholic Church, the LCMS has not - stressing that the gap is too wide. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/44 "2018-09-18T19:33:55Z")
Does Pope Francis’s apparent status as culmination of a liberal “project” mean what it appears to mean, that the RCC has become far less liberal since the 1960s? I heard quite a bit of noise at the time he started, but to me he has just seemed “conservative, but a tiny bit less conservative than the recent ones”. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/45 "2018-09-18T21:49:56Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Does Pope Francis’s apparent status as culmination of a liberal “project” mean what it appears to mean, that the RCC has become far less liberal since the 1960s? > > I heard quite a bit of noise at the time he started, but to me he has just seemed “conservative, but a tiny bit less conservative than the recent ones”. He’s not more liberal, he just focuses the Church in a different direction than Benedict and JPII did. He’s reportedly said some things that sound more liberal, but has changed nothing that would comply with those reported things. He’s dragged his feet on the pedophile priests issue while really saying some stupid things from a publicity standpoint. His history of cooperation with some very unpleasant governments in Argentina when he was bishop there stands against him, too. Remember that the same cardinals that elected Joe the Rat also elected Francis. Those cardinals did not all suddenly have an epiphany that the Church should be more liberal less than a decade after they installed the former High Inquisitor. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/46 "2018-09-18T22:18:53Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > He’s not more liberal, he just focuses the Church in a different direction than Benedict and JPII did. He’s reportedly said some things that sound more liberal, but has changed nothing that would comply with those reported things. He’s dragged his feet on the pedophile priests issue while really saying some stupid things from a publicity standpoint. His history of cooperation with some very unpleasant governments in Argentina when he was bishop there stands against him, too. > > Remember that the same cardinals that elected Joe the Rat also elected Francis. Those cardinals did not all suddenly have an epiphany that the Church should be more liberal less than a decade after they installed the former High Inquisitor. That’s more or less how I saw it too, though mine had less detail. I was checking because in general I’m liberal enough that most liberals find it excessive, and thought maybe because of that I just didn’t catch some kind of subtlety or something. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/47 "2018-09-18T23:53:02Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Unfortunately, scandals are just part of what it means to be Catholic. Now, you have bishops covering for sexual abuse. In the Middle Ages, you had bishops and popes with concubines and illegitimate children. Oh hell no… until pretty much yesterday, you had priests with concubines and illegitimate children. Nowadays they’re supposed to ask to be defrocked and marry the woman. Q: in a small village, how do you know who are the priest’s children? A: those who call him Uncle instead of Father (translator’s note: not about incest but about the Spanish custom of referring to older males unrelated to you as Uncle). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/48 "2018-09-19T05:26:39Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > I was thinking recently, regarding the scandals that have plagued the Catholic Church: > > One one hand, American Catholics have these sexual abuse scandals horribly tarnishing the image of their church. On the other hand, they have a Pope who I get the impression is seen by many as being too liberal. > > If I were an Orthodox clergyman who was tasked with trying to gain new members, I would be actively trying to recruit from this large pool of Catholics who are at once disaffected with the Pope and also feeling disgraced by the child-abuse issue. I would say, “come join the Orthodox Church, we are the oldest Christian church, we have the same veneration of the saints and the same old-school traditions, but without all the baggage of the Catholic church which has left you behind by being too corrupt, by covering up for evil priests, and by having a Pope who is too liberal.” > > But then again I don’t know if the Orthodox even try to actively gain new members this way. There is the slight problem that the Orthodox have had the same problems as the RCC, simply not getting as much publicity as the much larger RCC. (For that matter, the prevalence of pedphilia appears to be the same whether one is discussing priests, ministers,rabbis, athletic coaches, etc. with the RCC having an institution with record keeping that allows more discovery. This in no way excuses abuses within the RCC, but people seeking to find shelter elsewhere may be surprised to discover that such shelter does not exist.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/49 "2018-09-19T09:13:25Z")
Just yesterday I was reading about abuses in Tibetan Buddhism. Like I said: changing denominations will not leave the bad seeds behind. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/50 "2018-09-19T13:23:16Z")
In my experience, it’s just easier to stop going to church. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/51 "2018-09-19T13:32:02Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > In my experience, it’s just easier to stop going to church. Yeah sure, but some people actually believe in this stuff. Who would have thought, right? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/52 "2018-09-19T16:47:05Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > In my experience, it’s just easier to stop going to church. Doesn’t protect you from abusive coaches, teachers, doctors, scout leaders… Same shit, different swimming pool. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/53 "2018-09-19T16:56:59Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Yeah sure, but some people actually believe in this stuff. Who would have thought, right? Or like the whole “community” thing. Weird, I know. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/54 "2018-09-19T17:35:15Z")
If they identify with the religion, then they won’t leave the religion. Perhaps their specific church, but not the religion. If they are suffering because of the abuse, then their sense of “community” will be shaken, if not shattered. Naw, for most Catholics as described by the OP the most common route taken is to just no longer go to church, not switch religions. I mean, hell, “lapsed Catholics” are such a thing they even have their own Wiki page, not something you find for “lapsed Lutherans” or “lapsed Methodists.” > **[Lapsed Catholic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsed_Catholic)** > > A lapsed Catholic is a Catholic who is non-practicing. Such a person may still identify as a Catholic, and remains one according to Catholic canon law. > The Catholic Church believes that either excommunication or an act of defection only separate a person from the sacraments, and that nothing can terminate membership to the Catholic Church. > The Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "lapsed" in relation to "lapsed Catholic" is "no longer believing or following the teachings of a religion". The... ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/55 "2018-09-19T17:54:04Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Greek, Eastern European, or Arab. All the major Arab Christian denominations are Orthodox, I think. . It will be a surprise to the Maronite Catholic Lebanese, the largest and most powerful christian arab denomination to learn they are Orthodox. Or the Melkite catholics. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/56 "2018-09-19T22:27:23Z")
I stand corrected - thanks. They are indeed in full communion with the Holy See, making them part of the Catholic Church, and not Orthodox. Wikipedia: “While the Melkite Catholic Church’s Byzantine rite liturgical traditions are shared with those of Eastern Orthodoxy, the Church has been part of the Catholic Church since the affirmation of its union with the Holy See of Rome in 1724.” ---
**Author:** ![I.Dunno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9f8e36/32.png) [@I.Dunno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I.Dunno)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/57 "2018-09-19T23:20:26Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > If they identify with the religion, then they won’t leave the religion. Perhaps their specific church, but not the religion. > > If they are suffering because of the abuse, then their sense of “community” will be shaken, if not shattered. > > Naw, for most Catholics as described by the OP the most common route taken is to just no longer go to church, not switch religions. I mean, hell, “lapsed Catholics” are such a thing they even have their own Wiki page, not something you find for “lapsed Lutherans” or “lapsed Methodists.” > > [Lapsed Catholic - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsed_Catholic) Hey, thanks for the wikipedia link. I quit going to church years ago. (Well, family funerals are the exceptions.) Had no idea I was still Catholic. Wow, who knew! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/58 "2018-09-19T23:24:07Z")
The Catholic Church’s requirements for who can take communion at a Catholic mass are actually that the person should hold the same theological views concerning the Eucharist. The Eastern Catholics do, and so they’re allowed to take communion. Most of the Orthodox do, too, so they’re allowed, also, at least from the Catholic standpoint, but they should still make sure their own bishop is OK with it, too (they might or might not be). Lutherans and Episcopalians hold what might be called compatible views: The official positions of those churches aren’t as specific as the Catholic Church’s, and so individual Lutherans or Episcopalians might or might not hold the appropriate (from a Catholic standpoint) views: They can talk it over with the priest beforehand to find out. Most other Protestant sects, however, have views of the Eucharist which are specifically in conflict with the Catholic Church’s, and so members of those denominations cannot take communion with Catholics. But that’s an awful lot to explain to a few hundred strangers at a wedding or funeral or the like (i.e., the most likely occasions for a non-Catholic to attend a Catholic mass), and so it’s easier for the priest to just say that non-Catholics shouldn’t take communion. And I’ll agree that most people care more about liturgy than about theology, anyway, and Episcopalians have a liturgy that’s almost identical to the Catholic one, and Lutherans and Methodists very similar. That said, movement to similar theologies isn’t unheard-of: After my dad had some confrontations with his parish priest and with the diocese, he started attending the local Eastern Catholic church instead (theologically basically identical, but liturgy more like the Orthodox). ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/59 "2018-09-19T23:54:57Z")
> [@I.Dunno](#): > > Hey, thanks for the wikipedia link. I quit going to church years ago. (Well, family funerals are the exceptions.) Had no idea I was still Catholic. Wow, who knew! Yeah, I’ve been a “Lapsed Catholic” since junior high school. Didn’t know it still counted. I just avoid all churches. The make my teeth itch. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503/60 "2018-09-20T23:48:26Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Well, you have organizations like the [Southern Baptist Convention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention), but even those tend to have far less centralized control than even “mainline” Protestant churches, much less the Roman Catholic Church, as the autonomy of the local church is seen as an important feature of many of those denominations. > > And, there are also many independent Evangelical churches, which aren’t a member of any broader organization at all. There are some who even welcome[John Wayne movie cosplay.](https://www.google.com/search?q=cowboy+church&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_vv3A4crdAhVRPK0KHbGqBZ8Q_AUIDygC&biw=1396&bih=657&dpr=1.38) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-lots-of-catholics-going-to-migrate-to-the-orthodox-church/821503.md?page=4)