# Are many dopers against religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511 "2003-08-25T13:57:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/21 "2003-08-25T19:42:18Z")
Against Organized Religion ? Yep Think many faitful are gullible ? Yep It takes a lot of guts to go against the mainstream or the “environment” you live in. If your whole family is atheist its brave to go against that. If most people are religious (which seems to be the case) atheism is more “gutsy”. I was raised without the hindrances of religion so I don’t count myself as brave… thou I do consider “God” as an easy answer… not a brave one. As for the “need to prove”… I doubt that is the case for most atheists… since by definition it cant be proved or disproved. Suppose its just that “god” doesnt answer anything at all about existance. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/22 "2003-08-25T19:55:14Z")
I have a big problem with any belief system that sabotages people’s ability to look at reality through their own eyes, and draw rational conclusions from what they see. \*All \*religion does this, to varying degrees. What bothers me most is the indoctrination of children - giving them ready-made answers before they’re old enough to ask questions. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/23 "2003-08-25T20:05:03Z")
You have do have a good point there- it is rather unfair that a child must be born into a belief system. But in a way, we do this outside religion too- isn’t it the same with various cultures, family values, etc? Religion is the easiest example but there are other social organizations/kinds of communities that do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/24 "2003-08-25T20:20:35Z")
Taking it a step further Incubus… we beleive in the value of money… we beleive certain things are fair since we have known things to be that way for a long time. You are right in that religion isnt alone… but then when we grow up we tend to figure out some things arent exactly what they seemed. Only religion keeps trying to tie us down again… or think we are going to hell. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/25 "2003-08-25T20:31:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Incubus \* > I don’t know if this has been asked before, but sometimes I feel like a lot of dopers are against organized religion. Would you agree/disagree? Depends what you mean by “against”. I personally find it to be lacking in substance, but I certainly don’t harbor any ill-will towards religious people (until they try to tell me what to do). And I suspect that the majority of non-religious dopers would agree with that. > [@](#): > > It seems like some intellectuals are atheist because they are people who feel they need proof of everything in life. Kind of a 'if it can’t be logically explained, I can’t accept it" attitude. Faith often seems to be associated with ignorance or gullibility, but I see it the other way around. I say it takes a lot of guts to accept something you cant logically explain, that there may be things out there beyond the human realm of understanding and logic. But as far as I am concerned, it is logically contradictory to say both that something is beyond human understanding, _and_ that you understand it. If a thing is _truly_ beyond understanding, then it is by definition impossible to know anything about it, and hence there is no practical difference between that and non-existence. It’s not so much that absolute proof is required, it’s just that _any_ evidence at all would be helpful.😉 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/26 "2003-08-25T20:49:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > As other posters have already pointed out, there are scientists who believe science and religion to be harmonious, and that science points the way to ultimate belief in God. But there’s a big difference between understanding the efficacy of the _scientific method_, and believing something merely because a _scientist_ said it. A scientist’s belief in God carries little weight scientifically unless he can show objective evidence to support his belief. Anything less is merely a fallacious appeal to authority. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/27 "2003-08-25T20:54:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\* > But as far as I am concerned, it is logically contradictory to say both that something is beyond human understanding, _and_ that you understand it. If a thing is _truly_ beyond understanding, then it is by definition impossible to know anything about it, and hence there is no practical difference between that and non-existence. \*\* So if you can’t understand it, you can’t understand _anything_ about it? I think that’s a false dichotomy. If something is beyond human understanding, that doesn’t necessarily make it _totally_ incomprehensible. It doesn’t mean that there’s nothing about it which can be understood. ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/28 "2003-08-25T20:54:34Z")
re·li·gion n. 1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. I’m against #1 – I understand the need for mythology, but I’m against it’s codification and governmental support. I think definition #2 is a waste of time, but the results can be interesting in a morbid sort of way. I’m OK with #3 and all for #4. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/29 "2003-08-25T20:55:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*But there’s a big difference between understanding the efficacy of the _scientific method_, and believing something merely because a _scientist_ said it. A scientist’s belief in God carries little weight scientifically unless he can show objective evidence to support his belief. Anything less is merely a fallacious appeal to authority. \*\* Wait a minute. Are you seriously suggesting that the scientific method is the only way in which knowledge can be acquired? If so, then can you please describe the scientific experiment which you used to establish this fact. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/30 "2003-08-25T21:18:09Z")
I think you need not look any farther than this thread to get an idea of certain dopers beliefs about religion: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trjckster \* > \*\*The straight dope column, that this message board to dedicated to, is supposed to dispell ignorance with reason, evidence and logic. Religion has very little in common with those ideals (reason, evidence and logic) so conflict between those who follow each ideology is not surprising. > > I think it takes guts to look at something you don’t understand, examine it, experiment, reject what is guessed and use logic to come to a hypothesis which you can test to further your understanding. Giving up and accepting superstition is cowardly. \*\* and > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godzillatemple \* > \*\*In a perfectly enlightened world, everybody would recognize that God is a myth borne of ignorance, fear and wish fulfillment, and that there are valid and important reasons to get along with one another other than simply “God told us to.” \*\* and > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by apricot syrup \* > **What does take guts is to say “We can’t answer these questions yet with the state of the art in science, and will reserve judgment until we can.” rather than inventing fanciful, fairy tale explanations to fill the uncomfortable vaccuum of current ignorance.** and > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Rahak Mani_ > **Only religion keeps trying to tie us down again… or think we are going to hell.** These posts are a good example of the tenor of religious issues on the boards in that they do tend to show a modicum of hostility to theism. And as faith gets more and more organized into religion, there tends to be more and more of these types of sentiments expressed. It is somewhat rare to find full-fledged, hold no bars attacks on religious beliefs, but much more likely to see these kinds of subtle insults to theists. ---
**Author:** ![kitarak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kitarak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitarak)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/31 "2003-08-25T21:41:07Z")
I’m certainly not _against_ religion. I don’t like extremism in general, and religious extremism particularly bothers me - I’m not a big fan of, for example, christian fundamentalists who tell me that I’m going to hell unless I embrace Jesus as my personal lord and saviour. That being said, as with most of the previous posters, regardless of my opinion of a particular religious belief I’m not _against_ it, as long as they don’t actually try and enforce their beliefs on me. I’m not even really against them trying to convert me - I think it’s bloody rude, and utterly counterproductive, but they’re also perfectly entitled to do so. I may not agree with them, but just because I hold an opinion doesn’t make it right, and in a lot of cases I can at least partially understand their viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/32 "2003-08-25T21:42:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*So if you can’t understand it, you can’t understand _anything_ about it? I think that’s a false dichotomy. > > If something is beyond human understanding, that doesn’t necessarily make it _totally_ incomprehensible. It doesn’t mean that there’s nothing about it which can be understood. \*\* I thought you might say that. I agree that in general, it would be a false dichotomy. But in this specific case, I don’t think it is, because we are talking about God-belief, which is generally posited as not only uncomprehended, but uncomprehensible. As an example of a scientific principle that is not fully understood, let’s use gravity. I think most people would agree that we don’t fully comprehend it at present. BUT, we have empirical evidence that it exists. With God-belief, however, there is no empirical evidence. The assertion that is generally made with regard to God is that God cannot be detected or measured empirically; only “spiritually”. The implication is that not only can we not _understand_ God, but that we can’t even observe or measure God. This is quite different from things like gravity, that can be readily measured. To say that we can _know_ things about God, but at the same time say that we have never _observed_ those things is logically contradictory in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/33 "2003-08-25T21:54:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by g8rguy \* > Surely you see, **rjung** , that what you’ve just said is equivalent to “you can believe in whatever you want, so long as you don’t act in accordance with your beliefs.” Nonsense; it merely establishes that your right to religious expression is limited to your personal space. If I told you that my religion teaches me to sacrifice all folks who use the handle “g84guy” on computer forums, should I be allowed to act on that belief? My right to swing my fist ends at your nose. My right to worship god ends at your home/school/neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![MusicJunkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@MusicJunkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicJunkie)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/34 "2003-08-25T21:57:16Z")
I am against religions. I don’t go around saying that or trying to turn people to atheism. I only post this here because it was asked. I don’t trust religions and people that are too religious. I see it as a form of weakness in most people. I also define non-organized deity worshiping as religion. ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/35 "2003-08-25T22:08:13Z")
I’m certainly not against religion, although it worries me when people are part of a belief system that makes it difficult to be happy. Several have posted about scientists who are religious. Let me throw this out there: I’ve met a scientist or two who was a real horn dog. And they might have talked some smack about bio-evolutionary needs and stress release and whatever else they could come up with… but the deal is, they were horn dogs. You do your job and your live your life. You don’t have to weave every element into a seamless whole. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/36 "2003-08-25T22:11:00Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by **Dinsdale** \* [quote] quote: Are many dopers against religion? [/quote[ Only the smart ones! 😉 [/QUOTE] **Dinsdale** , old buddy, I’d love to answer this one at length, but I’ve got a Mensa RG to prep for. Fortunately other people are on the chalicist and lector rotations at my church for next Sunday. 😉 back at ya! More seriously, I’m very familiar with the belief that logic or intelligence and religion are incompatible, and I don’t wholly disagree. I would not want to believe in a God who could be limited by what human logic is capable of. There are also a bunch of people out there who, whether they intend to or not, do a very good job of putting people off the religions they practice. There are some things in my life for which religion supplies me with the most simple and elegant explanation, but I don’t believe it’s my right to force those beliefs on anyone. If someone asks, however, I will answer. I know this sounds hopelessly fuzzy to some, and that’s fair enough. On the other hand, I also have a good friend who was a hard atheist, the kind who used to say to himself, “How can people _believe_ that stuff!?!” He’s now a Wiccan priest. CJ ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/37 "2003-08-25T22:12:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamlet \* > \*\*These posts are a good example of the tenor of religious issues on the boards in that they do tend to show a modicum of hostility to theism. And as faith gets more and more organized into religion, there tends to be more and more of these types of sentiments expressed. It is somewhat rare to find full-fledged, hold no bars attacks on religious beliefs, but much more likely to see these kinds of subtle insults to theists. \*\* Would you prefer that we atheists insult you more blatantly, that we show more than a mere “modicum of hostility” to theism? In other words, would you like us to treat you the way theists often treat us? Most theistic people in the U.S., especially Christians, are overwhelmingly smug in the superiority of their religious beliefs. The proof of this is the fact that religion, especially Christianity, has an ironclad stranglehold on virtually every aspect of our society. Everything from the Ten Commandments to religious holidays to religious statements on our money - we might as well be living in a theocracy. It’s assumed that everyone believes in \*some \*kind of supreme being: “I can’t believe you don’t believe in \*anything! \*I mean, everyone believes in \*something, \*I mean, where do you think everything came from, and where do we go when we die?” It’s assumed that everyone believes in Christian ethics. “Well, you can’t just do whatever you feel like doing, your morality has to be based on \*something, \*and are you seriously saying that you don’t believe in the Ten Commandments? How can you question what people have believed all these centuries?” And if you stand your ground, they come back with a condescending “I’ll pray for you.” It’s assumed that everyone practices Christian ceremonies. “You really didn’t have a Christmas tree when you were little, and you didn’t get any presents, and you didn’t believe in Santa Claus?” “Oh my God, you haven’t been \*baptized?” \*“Whaddaya mean, you won’t buy a chocolate bar to support my daughter’s sunday school?” And then there are the smug, mindless statements like: “I can prove you’re not an atheist: if you don’t believe in God, then who do you pray to?” Yes, someone actually said that to me. How would it feel if you told someone you were a Christian, and they said, “Well you just \*think \*you’re a Christian, I don’t believe anyone’s \*really \*a Christian, I mean there are no Christians in fox holes.” And then there’s a constant daily barrage, on the 5:00 news, of sightings of angels and miracles and Jesus-shaped rust stains and phenomena that “can’t be explained by science so it must be the work of God.” And just try to get elected to any office after you’ve come out as a atheist. It’s really the SMUGNESS that gets to me more than anything else, the assumption that you’ve got the numbers, so of course you must be right. So if you detect a little hostility in the SDMB toward theism, just consider it payback. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/38 "2003-08-25T22:13:38Z")
Scientific method is relatively new exhaustive procedural method coming from devices invented during the Renaissance, combined with good ol’ observation. Some people think that once the Method was established, there is no need for subjective truth in our lives; that there is no room for faith in our lives. But then situations such as the Tuskeegee experiments occured. Some skeptics want to discount these, but these came about on purely scientific principles. And such situations led to a massive distrust in science solving all of our problems, and indeed, may create worse ones. Sadly, that is especially true in the Black community. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/39 "2003-08-25T22:15:06Z")
I do not like organized religion. I think organized religion is a way to stifle introspection, interpretation, and independent thinking through implied exclusivity on truth, morality, or any number of subjects. But I am not against religion in the sense that people with common beliefs band together to present a unified front; indeed this is the basis for much of human history in many areas of conduct. This is a murky line to draw, but I believe it is there. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511/40 "2003-08-25T22:15:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*My right to swing my fist ends at your nose. > My right to worship god ends at your home/school/neighborhood. \*\* Not in the slightest. I can pray in the schools, in the parks, in the neighbrohoods, in the streets (provided, of course, that I’m a private citizen). My right to worship extends all over the place, although of course it can be infringed if it involves, say, human sacrifice. What matters is that I’ve no right to force _you_ to worship as I see fit. That goes both ways, however. But that’s not what you suggested in the first place; what you’ve said is that Joe Believer has no right to try to change society in accordance with his religious beliefs. And _ **that** _ is utter nonsense. He has no right to _succeed_; that’s up to the members of the society. But he has every right to _try_, IMO, and I sincerely hope that, words to the contrary notwithstanding, you didn’t mean otherwise. On the other hand, if you did mean otherwise, it does speak somewhat to the OP, doesn’t it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-many-dopers-against-religion/197511.md?page=3)