# Are Men and Women Equal in Today's Society? No C-Words Please. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2010, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324 "2010-04-16T09:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/1 "2010-04-16T09:51:03Z")
First, [some background.](some background.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/2 "2010-04-16T10:07:49Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > No C-Words Please Cantaloupe! Cromulent! Cats! Cassandra! Cavitation! Chivalrous Californian cavalry cavalcade! “C-words?” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/3 "2010-04-16T10:18:55Z")
Oh; and if you were trying to put a link in your OP, you apparently used “some background” twice instead of putting in an URL. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/4 "2010-04-16T10:19:55Z")
Rats. I hit the wrong button, hit the edit button, and then spent too long a time typing. I don’t know if Moderators can combine post entries, but if not, fine. Anyway, I wouldn’t suggest you read the entire link. What I’d like is a calm, rational discussion of the topic. Are men and women equal in our society? Is feminism’s work finally done? Is the balkanization of women’s issues, breast cancer, domestic violence, childcare, etc., due to a need to focus on problems? Or is it also an attempt to avoid the controversy of discussing women’s lingering inequality? Or does the inequality of women no longer exist? In the linked thread, incoherence on my part was a frequent complaint. Feel free to tell me if I’m being incoherent here. But be nice about it, and explain how you think that I am being that way. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/5 "2010-04-16T10:23:00Z")
[http:/Work, Damn you!](http:/Work, Damn you!) I can’t get the link to work. Just go to the BBQ Pit and read at little of the of the thread entitled “I Agree with Everything She Said, and yet…NNYYYAAA…etc”. Thank you. God, it’s a wonder I can use a computer at all sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/6 "2010-04-16T10:42:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Cantaloupe! > > Cromulent! > > Cats! > > Cassandra! > > Cavitation! > > Chivalrous Californian cavalry cavalcade! > > “C-words?” Okay, you can use any c-word you want, except the obvious one which rhymes with punt. Really makes a thread title stand out though, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/7 "2010-04-16T10:44:27Z")
Is the question “are women and men now equal”, or something to do with women’s rights? There’s no mention at all of the ridiculous bias in family courts against fathers, the gradual hysterical demonisation of men regarding suspected paedophilia, the fact that males make up the vast majority of the workforce in highly dangerous jobs, in times of disaster how males are expected to lay down their own lives for women and children, etc. etc. Are you interested in discussing equality, or women’s rights? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/8 "2010-04-16T10:51:49Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Are men and women equal in our society? Is feminism’s work finally done? Nope. There’s still plenty of sexism against women. And for that matter, against men. As for feminism; I’m more personally comfortable with a philosophy of “equal rights” than one of “feminism”, being male. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Is the balkanization of women’s issues, breast cancer, domestic violence, childcare, etc., due to a need to focus on problems? Or perhaps it’s an example of the balkanization of the movement for equal rights in general; not just for women. Instead of a general drive for civil rights, fairness, tolerance and so on for people in general more and more we see little factions all of which seem to wants rights for themselves, and don’t care much about anyone else (or are actively bigoted towards others for that matter). It could also be a result of the fact that while women are still not always treated fairly, they certainly aren’t treated with the kind of general oppression they used to be; the removal of that general oppression removes a lot of the motivation for women to feel a sense of solidarity with each other against a common enemy. “Women” after all is a very diverse group. Oh, and: [I Agree with Everything She Said, and yet, NNNYYYRRRRRAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGHHHH!!!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=559151) Glancing at that thread; I’d say that if such issues get dressed up with “It’s for the children”, it has little to do with women’s issues being looked down upon. Especially not rape\*; people freak out about sex crimes. I’d look at it as because women are traditionally associated with children, she has the opportunity to use the old “won’t someone think of the children?!” political emotional blackmail routine. I don’t think it has anything to do with the bad reputation of feminism; except for some of the real far right, I don’t think that many would even think of unprocessed rape kits as a feminist issue at all, but as a law-and-order or government incompetence issue. - And yes, I know how that didn’t used to be the case, and how rape used to be treated as trivial or as the woman’s fault. But not anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/9 "2010-04-16T10:58:26Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Is the question “are women and men now equal”, or something to do with women’s rights? There’s no mention at all of the ridiculous bias in family courts against fathers, the gradual hysterical demonisation of men regarding suspected paedophilia, the fact that males make up the vast majority of the workforce in highly dangerous jobs, in times of disaster how males are expected to lay down their own lives for women and children, etc. etc. > > Are you interested in discussing equality, or women’s rights? Actually, I’d very much love to discuss sexism against men. I just thought that would make the topic too incoherent. But I am glad you brought this up since it’s an example of what I’ve been trying to say in the other thread as well. The topic of inequality between the sexes takes on an immediate tone of hostility every single time it is approached. No matter how it is approached. This is why I believe there has been a balkanization of women’s issues, in order to avoid conflict. It is not, as was suggested in the other thread, simply to avoid vagueness. It seems impossible to discuss the matter without tempers flaring and spittle flying. How are we to talk about gender inequality without instantly going to a war footing between the sexes? ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/10 "2010-04-16T11:18:42Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Actually, I’d very much love to discuss sexism against men. I just thought that would make the topic too incoherent. You want sexism against males ? Just create a male profile (with a photo of an average-looking man with average finances) on any dating site and try to have a date in less than 24 hours. You’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/11 "2010-04-16T12:03:59Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > It seems impossible to discuss the matter without tempers flaring and spittle flying. How are we to talk about gender inequality without instantly going to a war footing between the sexes? Well, the male side needs to be willing to admit the misogyny is not yet dead; and the female side needs to admit that yes, men can be discriminated against and mistreated. And both sides need to stop the weird victimization-contest that seems to have become the norm; where each side insists that it has suffered worse and therefore only its problems are worthy of consideration. Not a problem confined to gender relations. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/12 "2010-04-16T12:18:44Z")
> [@Khaki\_Campbell](#): > > You want sexism against males ? Just create a male profile (with a photo of an average-looking man with average finances) on any dating site and try to have a date in less than 24 hours. You’ll see. That is not sexism, unless you’re counting people only dating people of the gender they’re attracted to. The appearance of sexism only exists because you’re trying to treat two largely separate groups (people attracted to men, and people attracted to women) as a monolithic unit. It’s like calling France racist for not treating French people the same way the United States treats Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/13 "2010-04-16T12:44:39Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > It seems impossible to discuss the matter without tempers flaring and spittle flying. How are we to talk about gender inequality without instantly going to a war footing between the sexes? I don’t know. I don’t think full and true equality is even possible due to the inherent differences between men and women, and the differential way this affects things like (but probably not limited to) productive capacity, length of working life, physical ability, etc. Men and women _are_ different animals. I think the best we can probably achieve will be the removal of _arbitrary_ gender-based discrimination, but I don’t think we’re even there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/14 "2010-04-16T13:14:05Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Is the balkanization of women’s issues, breast cancer, domestic violence, childcare, etc., due to a need to focus on problems? I haven’t read the other thread, but could you give an example of how (for instance) breast cancer has been balkanized? Or domestic violence, for that matter. I guess I should mention in advance that I don’t think resisting the suggestion that “the government should spend more on issue X” is balkanizing that issue. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/15 "2010-04-16T13:14:59Z")
> [@Khaki\_Campbell](#): > > You want sexism against males ? Just create a male profile (with a photo of an average-looking man with average finances) on any dating site and try to have a date in less than 24 hours. You’ll see. This isn’t sexism. It’s a side-effect of the fact that there’s ten times more men on dating sites than women. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/16 "2010-04-16T13:18:07Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t know. I don’t think full and true equality is even possible due to the inherent differences between men and women, and the differential way this affects things like (but probably not limited to) productive capacity, length of working life, physical ability, etc. > > Men and women _are_ different animals. I think the best we can probably achieve will be the removal of _arbitrary_ gender-based discrimination, but I don’t think we’re even there yet. Good. Let’s start from here. What forms of arbitrary discrimination would you like to see removed? Against either sex. How do you think we might approach it? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/17 "2010-04-16T13:20:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I haven’t read the other thread, but could you give an example of how (for instance) breast cancer has been balkanized? Or domestic violence, for that matter. > > I guess I should mention in advance that I don’t think resisting the suggestion that “the government should spend more on issue X” is balkanizing that issue. > > Regards, > Shodan Certainly. You might read post 27 in the other thread. That explains my view. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/18 "2010-04-16T13:36:13Z")
People are not equal in this world\*, so men and women would be unequal under this. \*Perhaps on paper in certain societies people are suppose to be equal, but in reality and practice they are not. Also it is my belief that men and women are suppose to be different, and complementary in nature, not supplementary. Unfortunately this has normally has meant that women are oppressed, but it was not suppose to be that way IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/19 "2010-04-16T13:37:45Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Good. Let’s start from here. What forms of arbitrary discrimination would you like to see removed? Against either sex. How do you think we might approach it? Inequality in pay for doing the same job equally competently seems a fairly obvious one - it’s in the process of being fixed here in the UK, but it’s not completely there yet. Fluidity of the job market has made it harder to justify paying someone less for a job they might leave for maternity, because people leave jobs for any number of reasons now - so employers just have to face the risk of spending money on paying/training someone who might up and leave later. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324/20 "2010-04-16T14:05:24Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Certainly. You might read post 27 in the other thread. That explains my view. I assume this is the one you mean - > [@Two Many Cats](#): > > The push to cure breast cancer is also an example of a disguised women’s issue. This one happens to be dressed up as a health issue. In some other thread on this board, someone complained that breast cancer was somehow seen as a “nobler” cancer than other cancers. This is because women have channelled their energies into fundraising to fight this cancer that they might’ve used for any women’s issue. Women’s rightful anger at sexism has been diverted into fighting this horrible disease, but breast cancer is no more horrible than any other cancer. > But nobody is in favor of cancer. That makes it a safe cause. > > For some reason, women in general seemed compelled to deny that they are fighting these causes for their own sake. Because we are still second class. > But nobody wants to say that. Someone might get angry. I am afraid I don’t see this at all. The push to treat and cure breast cancer is not balkanized at all, een in the sense you mean. All of the campaigns I have seen or heard about against breast cancer are specifically about breast cancer, and breast cancer in women almost exclusively. They are not about cancer in general, and breast cancer is always spoken about as a woman’s issue. A small number of men get breast cancer every year - no one doubts that. But breast cancer is a disease that overwhelmingly afflicts women. And none of the pink ribbon campaigns that I have seen or participated in have ever tried to hide or downplay that fact. Just the opposite, in fact. Sorry - I just don’t buy your characterization as valid. Regards, Shodan [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-and-women-equal-in-todays-society-no-c-words-please/536324.md?page=2)