Are men getting the shaft?

Jodi: *Because this ENTIRE discussion presumes that (a) the baby is entitled to support and (b) the mother alone cannot support it so (c) someone else must. Who should that someone else be? The mostly innocent man, or the entirely innocent taxpayers? *

Jodi, this emphasis on “innocence” and “unfairness” as they apply to taxpayers in general, because the taxpayers “didn’t even get laid”, is puzzling me a bit. Surely we often “unfairly” require the taxpayers to support people even if the taxpayers aren’t the ones, or the primary ones, who get something out of it. For example, somebody who is cared for and supported for decades by his parents certainly gets very substantial benefits from that; but we don’t insist that the burden of supporting elderly parents should therefore fall on their children rather than on the taxpayers as a whole. In fact, a rich person can let his impoverished loving parents eke out their existence with Medicare and Social Security while he blows his pile on riotous living if he wants to, and we don’t complain that that’s “unfair” to the “innocent” taxpayers.

True, the point behind Social Security and Medicare is supposed to be that society as a whole is also indebted to the elders who have worked and paid taxes for years; but surely society as a whole is not as indebted as the children who were fed and washed and sheltered by those elders, yet we never sue the children for “elder support”. Is that fair?

And an argument can be made that society as a whole, although it may not be responsible for a baby’s conception, stands to gain significantly from having that baby properly supported and cared for: children are a society’s future, after all. In addition, we already help support many children by providing everything from food and clothes to education and low-interest loans for them, and not all of those are just for poor children whose parents can’t support them independently, either. Very few children are brought up from birth to adulthood solely on their parents’ own dollar.

Looking at all these things, my outrage level on considering the prospect of having society help support children whose fathers have unilaterally renounced parental rights and responsibilities is lower than yours. Yes, it’s not quite fair to society, but then neither is almost anything else. I don’t like the prospect of men having irresponsible sex and then ducking the consequences by renouncing all parental involvement, but I don’t like the prospect of women having irresponsible sex and then ducking the consequences by having an abortion, either. Neither is a good approach to the important issues of sex and reproduction, but I don’t think it’s ultimately best for society to permit one and not the other.

As I’ve said before, I appreciate the argument that abortion must be permitted because it involves a woman’s fundamental rights over her body. But (also as I’ve said before) an abortion is not just about exercising the option not to have a pregnant body; it’s about unilaterally renouncing impending parental responsibilities too. That’s a de facto right that women have that men don’t, simply because only women get pregnant; but I think it would be in the interests of equality and fairness to extend a legal equivalent of that right (renouncing impending parental responsibilities) to men.

See, what’s bothering me most here is a nagging conviction that a very important component in our ideal of parenthood is that it be voluntary. As a society, we have been gradually moving in the direction of separating sex and parenthood, recognizing that people have a right to indulge in the former even if they don’t desire the latter. In 1965 the Court held that it was unconstitutional to prohibit married people from using birth control, and in 1973 it held that a woman had a right to an abortion, and at present I think we’re slowly moving closer to officially recognizing sexual partnerships between people of the same sex: and all of this is tending to undermine the idea that having sex implies accepting the possibility of becoming a parent.

I don’t agree that the law is justified in considering that you’ve implicitly accepted parental responsibilities just because you got laid. I do agree that that’s the way anybody who gets laid ought to consider it; and personally, whenever I have sex (when I’m not spending all my Friday evenings on this goddamn message board, that is :)), I consider it my responsibility to make sure my partner and I agree on what we should do in every eventuality. But I don’t think that the law should be enforcing that attitude. And when I see the law in some cases contradicting that attitude—in particular, by telling women that they have the right to renounce impending motherhood, even if they chose to have sex, even unprotected sex—I have a hard time reconciling that with the law’s telling men that they implicitly accepted fatherhood as soon as they got laid.

I know many of us feel indignant about the idea of men getting laid and then weaseling out of fatherhood. Many people feel indignant about the idea of women getting laid and then weaseling out of motherhood via abortion, too. But as has been pointed out, the law can’t be coterminous with morality. We just have to pick out which moral aspects we think are paramount enough to be considered “rights”, and leave the rest up to individual moral judgement.

And I can’t help feeling that what we as a society ought to regard as one of the paramount moral issues of parenthood is its voluntary acceptance. No, I’m certainly not suggesting that parents should be able to give up the burdens of parenthood any time they feel like it: for one thing, there’s probably never been a parent in the history of the human race who didn’t feel like giving up at some point, if only momentarily. :slight_smile: But I think we ought to value the conscious act of consenting to parenthood—not just getting laid, but explicitly accepting responsibility for a particular child who exists or is about to exist—highly enough to refrain from insisting that people who have never given that consent, for whatever reason, are still obliged to be parents.

Yes, that means that society has to pick up the slack when there aren’t enough consenting parents to handle that responsibility. But as I said, society has an interest in picking up that slack, and I think it’s a better solution in the long run than saying that the responsibility automatically belongs on the people who got laid. As the pro-choice slogan says, “Every child a wanted child”—and to my mind, that means that the child should be wanted first and foremost by the people who bear responsibility for supporting him or her. If the only people who want the child are the taxpayers, then so be it. I think we have a duty to share responsibilities as a society that we don’t have a right to demand from unwilling individuals, whether or not they had sex.

Ya’ll are startin to run in circles, so I’ll throw this out.

One of the points of the article in the OP was that the sterotype of the disappearing dad is not quite true: a study of men in abortion-clinic waiting rooms found that fully half had offered to get married and have the baby.

More importantly, especially for purposes of this discussion, is the suggestion that as many as one in six abortions are performed without the father ever even knowing the mother was pregnant.

Even if we agreed that there’s no way you can ethically force a woman to do anything she doesn’t want, is it possible to allow the father some rights? Say the right to be informed of the pregnancy and/or abortion? Perhaps a waiting period of a few days in which he would be free to try and persuade the mother of his sincerity in being willing to support the child?

First off, my most sincere apologies to Jodi. The mis-attribution was completely unintentional, I assure you.

RickJay,

I still stand by my agruement. How is the logic used in the comparisons “completly invalid”?

As to “only people have rights”, I happen to agree, but what about your PETA and other tree-hugger friends? I’m sure they’d disagree.

It seems that some posters on this thread have an attitude of wanting to have their cake, and eat it, too.

Of course, no one should have the ability to force a woman to have an abortion, nor to have a baby.

That said, why don’t men have something approaching equal rights in the same situation? Why should men be forced to be fathers against their will?

How do you propose a man avoid being forced to be a father once conception has taken place without him forcing the woman to have an abortion?

Well, for example, if the pregnancy is the result of a delibarte fraud. For example, the woman swears she’s on the pill, but “forgets” to take it on purpose. Gets pregnant, then the man has to pay the consequences.

To me, it comes down to personal responsibility. Some women seem to want it both ways, i.e., if they screw around and get pregnant, it’s their choice, they can have an abortion, or take responsibility and have the baby. On the other hand, the man has no choice.

KIMSTU – I have a big ol’ point by point response typed up, and then I accidentally deleted it. I’m not going to type it again, but I will make the following points briefly, though:

  1. Society does not require adult children to take care of adult parents because it presumes elderly parents are capable of taking care of themselves. Therefore while society may believe that adult children have a moral responsibility to care for their parents, it does not place a legal responsibility on them, because it presumes that the majority of the class (elderly people) can and should take care of themselves. Moreover, children are not responsible for the existence of their parents. Society presumes precisely the opposite for children – namely, that they are NOT capable of taking care of themselves. It therefore places not just a moral but a legal obligation of support on the people responsible for the child’s existence – the parents.

  2. Society does gain from the proper support and care of children; that does not serve to make it responsible for that support and care. Society benefits from a healthy population as well, but it is not made responsible for providing free medical care to people with the means of paying for it themselves .

  3. The fact that we already pay for many children entirely and many other children in part (due to necessity), in no way justifies assuming the sole responsibility for all such children when it is not necessary to do so.

  4. Allowing parents (both male and female) to disavow responsibility for children in existence is far more that “not quite fair” to society. It is manifestly unfair to society; it rewards irresponsible behavior; it allows people to avoid the consequences of their own voluntary actions; and it leads to a literal “nursemaid” society. And believe me, society is far worse at raising kids than parents are – even reluctant ones.

  5. We allow women to make the decision to have children because they are the only people legitimately entitled to govern their own bodies. Any “unfairness” to men in this is inherent, unitended, and cannot be rectified without grossly violating the woman’s right to personal autonomy. We do not allow EITHER men or women to disavow parental responsibility for children who exist – not potential children (ie, a fetus), but actual children. Both sexes are equally responsible. Comparing these two scenarios is comparing apples and oranges, and it is in no way equitable to try to compensate for the inherent “unfairness” in the first situation by absolving either party of responsibility in the second situation. There is no “legally equivalent” right to the right to have an abortion that can be extended to men; certainly not the right to disavow parentage, which only serves to penalize society and the child for the actions (be they intended or not) of the parents.

  6. Society does NOT, by and large, recognize that parenthood should be voluntary. To the contrary, it recognizes that once a child exists, BOTH parents a responsible for its care and support, whether they like it or not. Society also does NOT recognize that the pre-birth decision to become a parent is purely voluntary; it recognizes that it may well be involuntary where the man is concerned, but nothing can be done about that because there is no way to extend to him a similar “pre-birth” right to decide whether or not to become a parent. But neither does society absolve him of his parenting responsibilities just because he didn’t choose to undertake them; society deems it more fair to place that burden on the reluctant father than on society as a whole – and rightly so, IMO.

In the end, we may just have to agree to disagree. You appear to advocate a socialist philosophy (and I do not use the term perjoratively but literally) that society is ultimately responsible for the actions of its members. I strongly disagree with that; I think the individual is responsible for the consequences of his or her actions, and such responsibility should not be easily disavowed – especially when such disavowal is to the clear deteriment of an innocent child.

First off, my most sincere apologies to Jodi. The mis-attribution was completely unintentional, I assure you.

RickJay,

I still stand by my agruement. How is the logic used in the comparisons “completly invalid”?

As to “only people have rights”, I happen to agree, but what about your PETA and other tree-hugger friends? I’m sure they’d disagree. **
[/QUOTE]

I don’t have any PETA friends and don’t really care what they think; they’re wrong. Human rights are for humans. And to be honest, I don’t think most members of PETA are pro-life.

As to the comparison, it’s silly. Simply put, homosexual marriage entails no burden on anyone. It’s a voluntary decision and for the state to recognize it harms nobody; equality of all civil unions goes towards fairness and liberty. To put restrictions on them is to reduce liberty; it’s state intervention in private affairs.

The same cannot be said of abortion law. When I said “blame God,” the fact remains that that’s a biological truth and you cannot reverse it. It entails no state intervention, though, does it? It’s not the government that makes women able to get pregnant, and the best route for the government to take is to stay out of the way.

You were, therefore, comparing a situation where the government is intruding into private affairs for no good reason (marriage law) with a sitution where the government is properly staying the hell out of the way (abortion law.) They’re completely opposite situations; the appropriate comparison would be current marriage law with a highly restrictive set of abortion laws.

That’s not answering the question. I asked “How do you propose a man avoid being forced to be a father once conception has taken place without him forcing the woman to have an abortion?” It certainly seems as if you are attempting to imply that men should be allowed to force women to have abortions, but you also said outright that no one should be forced to have an abortion. So what’s your brilliant solution? Ban abortions altogether?

Jodi: I have a big ol’ point by point response typed up, and then I accidentally deleted it.

Ouch! My sympathies.

*1. Society does not require adult children to take care of adult parents because it presumes elderly parents are capable of taking care of themselves. Therefore while society may believe that adult children have a moral responsibility to care for their parents, it does not place a legal responsibility on them, because it presumes that the majority of the class (elderly people) can and should take care of themselves. *

But we do not presume that the majority of elderly people can and should pay for all their own support and health care independently: we require society as a whole, not the individual elders’ children, to take responsibility for part of those costs. So while “presumption of self-sufficiency” is a reasonable explanation for not legally forcing children to contribute to their elderly parents’ maintenance, I don’t think it explains why we do legally require society as a whole to make such contributions.

*2. Society does gain from the proper support and care of children; that does not serve to make it responsible for that support and care. Society benefits from a healthy population as well, but it is not made responsible for providing free medical care to people with the means of paying for it themselves . *

Well, not yet. (There is actually quite a bit of support for universal socialized healthcare in this country, though, and Canada, for instance, seems to have managed to implement it without abandoning the principle of individual responsibility.) I agree that society is not obligated to be responsible for paying for everything that would be of benefit to it, but sometimes it chooses to accept such a responsibility, and sometimes that’s a good thing.

*3. The fact that we already pay for many children entirely and many other children in part (due to necessity), in no way justifies assuming the sole responsibility for all such children when it is not necessary to do so. *

It in no way requires us to assume that sole responsibility, certainly. But I think it does somewhat blur the black-and-white distinction between “people being responsible for their own kids (good)” and “people expecting society to be responsible for their kids (bad)”.

*4. Allowing parents (both male and female) to disavow responsibility for children in existence is far more that “not quite fair” to society. It is manifestly unfair to society; it rewards irresponsible behavior; it allows people to avoid the consequences of their own voluntary actions; and it leads to a literal “nursemaid” society. And believe me, society is far worse at raising kids than parents are – even reluctant ones. *

All of these are your personal opinions, and while you have every right to them, I don’t happen to agree that they’re necessarily true. And I think that the same arguments about unfairness and destruction of personal responsibility could equally well be made in opposition to any number of social-entitlement programs that already exist, such as public education and Medicare.

5. We allow women to make the decision to have children because they are the only people legitimately entitled to govern their own bodies. Any “unfairness” to men in this is inherent, unitended, and cannot be rectified without grossly violating the woman’s right to personal autonomy. We do not allow EITHER men or women to disavow parental responsibility for children who exist – not potential children (ie, a fetus), but actual children. Both sexes are equally responsible. Comparing these two scenarios is comparing apples and oranges […]

I don’t dispute any of this. My point was just that I think it’s a rather incomplete way of looking at the situation, because in reality, the apples and oranges are already inextricably mixed. Real-life decisions about abortion vs. motherhood do not make these clear distinctions between “potential children” and “actual children.”

*6. Society does NOT, by and large, recognize that parenthood should be voluntary. *

Obviously, or we wouldn’t have these mandatory-support laws. What I meant was that I think social opinion is moving in the direction of considering voluntary consent necessary for true parenthood, and I think that’s a good thing.

In the end, we may just have to agree to disagree.

I think so; fine by me.

*You appear to advocate a socialist philosophy (and I do not use the term perjoratively but literally) that society is ultimately responsible for the actions of its members. *

While I certainly don’t consider “socialist” a derogatory term (although I appreciate your delicacy in not wanting to offend me with it :slight_smile: and I am not in fact a socialist), I think this kind of overstates my position. I do think individual responsibility is extremely important, not only in taking care of one’s own needs and dependents but in helping out with those of others. But there are some individual responsibilities for which I think voluntary consent is also extremely important, and parenting is one of them.

If the mother wants the baby and the father does not, after the child is born, the father can file to terminate his rights and financial responsibilities. Ultimately, it is up to the judge, but unless there are unusual circumstances, if the mother agrees, then the father is off the hook. It does happen. A friend of mine also has joint custody of his son. The outcome of the custody hearing was that he did not have to pay child support. (Though he does pay for his son’s clothes and daycare, he is not required by the State to pay a penny. It is his choice to do so.) Also a father’s rights and financial responsibilities are defined differently in each state. In some states, if a father does not pay child support and does not visit the child within a certain time frame, his rights are terminated.

To actually force a man to pay child support (via direct deductions from his paycheck) is time consuming and costly (unless a woman goes through the AG’s office, where it costs society, unless the AG’s office files on the father and he actually pays). In my case, it is not worth my time to file on my son’s father. Once he gets far enough behind, I’ll offer him three options: pay the money, go to jail (he’s on probation already), or terminate your rights.

I believe that a woman should make damn sure that she can support her children before she bears them if she is not married to their father, or if her husband/boyfriend/fling/whatever has made it known that he doesn’t want children. And, really, what sort of mother would want to subject her children to a man that doesn’t want them anyway?

Society pays anyway - whether it’s for programs like AFDC, WIC (which is NOT foodstamps, and is only available until the child is 5 years old), foodstamps, or legal services such as the Attorney General’s office. Maybe society should require single mothers and fathers to speak to school kids during sex ed classes. Kids are taught about safe sex, but not the consequences of their actions should a pregnancy result: legal, emotional, and financial.

I’m trying to see if there is any middle ground here, s I will restate my question:

furt wrote:

And how do we know that the person claiming to be the father really is the father?

KIMSTU says:

Sure we do. Social services for the elderly are by and large for those who cannot afford to pay for them independently – just as social services for children are for those whose parents cannot afford to pay for them independently.

Only IF NECESSARY. Just as we require society to pay for social services for kids (for the most part) only if necessary.

Because someone has to or else the elderly suffer. The responsibility cannot be reasonably put on their adult children because their adult children are not legally responsible for their parents’ existence nor practically responsible for their financial difficulties – since adult parents can and do make most if not all financial decisions without input from their children, be those children minor or adult. Therefore, there is no theory under which adult children can reasonably be considered MORE responsible for the care of their independent parents than the rest of society. Morally more responsible, yes; but legally, no, because we generally only hold people responsible for their own actions, not the actions of others. (I realize the entire system of social assistance contravenes this, but it doesn’t change the fact that we DO and SHOULD hold people responsible for their own actions when we can, and as a society step in only when we have to.) In contrast, there ARE persuasive reasons to hold adult parents legally responsible for the difficulties of their minor children – namely the fact that the children only exist due to the actions of the parents. The very idea of responsbility for the results of one’s voluntary actions, coupled with the child’s self-evident inability to care for itself, dictates such a result, IMO.

By and large, society only chooses to accept responsibility for those things that (a) the individual will not and (b) it deems to be necessary – such as the support of children and, to a lesser extent, the elderly, and in the absence of other independent means of handling the problem. The idea that society does or should step in to the personal lives of individuals in the absence of necessity is antithetical to the American ideal of personal freedom.

I see no reason to blur that distinction at all. I think that, assuming the financial means exists, “people being responsible for their kids (good)” versus “people expecting society to be responsible for their kids (bad)” is a perfectly valid distinction to make.

The difference, of course, is that public education and Medicare are offered out of perceived necessity – it is perceived by society to be necessary that the government oversee the education of the populace because otherwise the populace simply doesn’t get educated. It is perceived that it by society to be necessary that the government ensure the medical care of its indigent citizens because this is morally preferable to allowing people to die for want of care. There is NO similar perceived necessity that the government be financially responsible for children whose parents can support them. In the first two cases, a need arguably exists (and whether such need truly DOES exist is a different subject); in the case of child support such a need only exists if you FIRST absolve the parents of their responsibility, thereby creating the need you propose to meet.

Sure they do – because if we are talking about only a “potential child,” then we are only talking about “motherhood” if the woman so elects – and even then not until the baby is born. Only actual children have actual mothers and actual fathers and actual rights to support. Potential children do not because they are not children.

I disagree. I have seen little that indicates that society (or the law at least) gives a rat’s ass about “voluntary consent” in so far as the parenting of ACTUAL, IN EXISTENCE children are concerned. The courts do not care whether the child was wanted or not; they only care that the child be supported, and they rightly assign the responsibility for that support to to the people responsible for the existence – the fathers AND the mothers – since it is the existence that created the responsibility in the first place.

Well, remember, I’m in Montana. :wink:

And I would agree – it IS extremely important. But, in the end, I still maintain that the child’s right to support and society’s right to be free from an obligation it in no way helped to create MUST outweigh the parent’s wish to be free from obligation. In other words, even if “voluntary consent” does not exist, the obligation still does and it MUST be met.

I was going to stay out of this, but here I go again:

First Kimstu, very good post, you’ve stated eloquently what I’d been trying to say, Thankyou!

Jodi also very good points, it’s hard to fault your positions because it’s clear you’re prioritizing the rights of the child, and that’s honorable to say the least.

Still, I can’t say that I’m in complete agreement with you. I still say it’s unfair for the law to compel parenthood, either financially or emotionally, when the mothers have legal recourses not availible to men. Why? Well let’s llok at Tracers last post

(The child mentioned below lives with me along with his siblings, by my choice, and I wouldn’t have it another way however…)

This is not hypothetical. This happened to me. Yes I was married to the child’s mother and thought that the child was mine. When we got divorced, the judge ordered paternity test (customary in Calif). After results I was still FORCED to pay child support. I felt and still do that it was a completely unfair decision.

Jodi replied to me: *But we do not presume that the majority of elderly people can and should pay for all their own support and health care independently: . . .

Sure we do. Social services for the elderly are by and large for those who cannot afford to pay for them independently…*

I was talking about Social Security and Medicare, which are not means-tested: even people who can well afford to pay their own living and medical expenses are eligible for these benefits.

*But I think it does somewhat blur the black-and-white distinction between “people being responsible for their own kids (good)” and “people expecting society to be responsible for their kids (bad)”.

I see no reason to blur that distinction at all. I think that, assuming the financial means exists, “people being responsible for their kids (good)” versus “people expecting society to be responsible for their kids (bad)” is a perfectly valid distinction to make. *

But my point was that we are already blurring this distinction with the current setup in which all, or nearly all, children are subsidized in some ways by society. There simply doesn’t exist a clear separation between the two categories of “good” parents who are entirely responsible for their children’s support and “bad” parents who are looking for society to shoulder the burden instead. Almost all parents are doing some of each.

*And I think that the same arguments about unfairness and destruction of personal responsibility could equally well be made in opposition to any number of social-entitlement programs that already exist, such as public education and Medicare.

The difference, of course, is that public education and Medicare are offered out of perceived necessity – it is perceived by society to be necessary that the government oversee the education of the populace because otherwise the populace simply doesn’t get educated. It is perceived that it by society to be necessary that the government ensure the medical care of its indigent citizens because this is morally preferable to allowing people to die for want of care. *

But Medicare is not just for indigent citizens; so this “perceived necessity” can’t be the chief motivation for it.

*Real-life decisions about abortion vs. motherhood do not make these clear distinctions between “potential children” and “actual children.”

Sure they do – because if we are talking about only a “potential child,” then we are only talking about “motherhood” if the woman so elects – and even then not until the baby is born. Only actual children have actual mothers and actual fathers and actual rights to support. Potential children do not because they are not children.*

Yes, I understood the technical distinction. My point was that it doesn’t reflect the reality of how women make choices about abortion. Many women, for example, have no real objection to being temporarily pregnant with a “potential child”, but they choose abortion to avoid the responsibility of being a mother to an “actual child.” You have defined the terms so that the question of avoiding responsibility for motherhood is irrelevant to abortion because at the moment when an abortion is chosen there is no “child” to be a “mother” to. That may be technically consistent but I think it deliberately ignores a large chunk of the truth of the situation.

*In other words, even if “voluntary consent” does not exist, the obligation still does and it MUST be met. *

Well, we’ve stated our opinions and neither of us has convinced the other, so I guess that’s that. Thanks for the discussion.

FURT asks:

Well, I’m not sure I see any point in giving the father the right to be informed of something he has no subsequent legal right to interfere in. Such a notification seems to me to be rather more calculated to foster pain and anger than otherwise: “Hello, I’m pregnant; I’m obliged to tell you so; but I’m having an abortion so I sure hope you didn’t want the child.”

That said, I absolutely agree that a man ought to have input regarding a woman’s choice to abort his child; this seems to me only fair as well. But I don’t see how you can create such a “right” for men that doesn’t appear to infringe on the woman’s right to make the ultimate decision. Certainly I appreciate men wanting the right to be heard and I agree as a moral matter that it ought to be extended to them, but I don’t know the practical value of a right to be heard, without more.

TRACER asks:

Paternity is established through blood or DNA testing. If you contest paternity but are compelled to pay support during the pendency of the tests and it turns out that you are right, you are not the father, then you are entitled to have that support obligation rescinded and your payments returned (this assumes, of course, that you contest paternity promptly, not that you wait five years and then do it).

STUFFINB says:

[quote}Still, I can’t say that I’m in complete agreement with you. I still say it’s unfair for the law to compel parenthood, either financially or emotionally, when the mothers have legal recourses not availible to men.[/quote]

What legal recourses do you contend women have that men do not? The right to have an abortion? How would you suggest extending that right to men?

This seems to indicate that you have assumed parental responsibility for the child in question. He or she lives with you. Why would you not be obliged to support him or her?

How old was the child? How long had you been on the scene? Had you established a father-child relationship with him or her? Because I’m betting the court determined that you had, and that you were, for all practical purposes, the child’s father, the lack of blood ties notwithstanding. Otherwise the child would not be living with you. You of all people must realize that there is more than “responsibilities” to raising a child – there are rights as well, such as the right to parent the child and to nurture a relationship with it. Though you apparently do not feel you should be responsible for the child in question, it seems like you enjoy the rights a parent should enjoy. Why should you have one without the other? I am in no way demeaing or minimizing your situation – and I have nothing but respect for your willingness to raise this child – but flip side of parenting rights is parenting responsibilities.

The child was 7 at the age of divorce. Yes I had a relationship with the child but that’s besides the point. How do you think it felt to find out after all that time that this child was not mine. Then to have it compounded by a big SO WHAT? by the courts. It made an already horrible situation that much worse.

Like I said in an earlier post (where I alluded to this) it’s over now, and I’m still not that comfortable discussing it for obvious reasons. I decided myself that the child in question was better off being raised by me. But what of the next guy? Oh, and I don’t know what state you live in, but I’ve never heard a case in Calif, where after support was ordered it was rescinded based on paternity.
But in the above I noticed you made no mention of the Biological Father father whom you’ve all been recently saying accepted this resposiblity by getting laid. And just the opposite, I got the responsibilty for this other guy getting laid. So again, we’re talking about an issue of fairness.

Anyway I gotta go, more tommorrow…

After reading h_thur’s post I realized that we may have a semantics problem here. When people in this thread say (I paraphrase) “A woman who doesn’t want to be a mother can have an abortion, but a man who doesn’t want to be a father can’t do anything about it”, then what exactly do they mean by being a father? Now personally I would say that once the baby is born the man is the father whether he likes it or not. Unless the woman reproduced parthenogenically then the baby’s got a mother and a father, and the father is whoever it is. The question is whether he will be a decent father or whether he will be (to use a mild term) a jerk.

There are plenty of men who can and do find ways to avoid taking any sort of responsbility for their children. Many good friends of mine have fathers like this. It was not easy for them to grow up knowing that their own fathers cared so little about them that not only did they not want to see their own kids, but that they didn’t even care if their kids were on food stamps. I cannot muster up any sympathy for men who think that they are getting “the shaft” because it isn’t easy enough for them to make their innocent children grow up that way. In some cases it may be for the best that these kids don’t see their fathers; I’ve known women who let their ex-husbands get away without paying child support because they didn’t think it was worth having to deal with their exes in order to get the money. But in cases like that the man is still a jerk.

STUFFINB, first of all, please do not think that I am judging your situation or being critical of your decisions, because I am not; I am merely trying to analogize your situation to the issue under discussion – an analogy that, with respect, you yourself invited by bringing it up.

No, actually, it isn’t, because by the age of 7 you were the child’s father in every way but one. The courts are very reluctant to break up an existing parent-child relationship, recognizing (correctly, IMO) that the parent-child bond is more important than the tenuous-to-non-existent bond of DNA.

Well, I don’t know, but I hope that by “not yours” you mean “not yours biologically,” because it sure sounds like it was and is your child.

I can appreciate it if you don’t want to talk about this, but I don’t understand your point here. How would the court saying “this man that you thought was your father is your father in every way but one, and will continue to support you and act as your father in the future” make a bad situation worse?

Well, it happens a lot when paternity is established early, before a parent-child bond is formed. It doesn’t happen a lot when the child reasonably thinks that the man who has been supporting him or her is his or her father.

Certainly I still think the biological father should be responsible for support, but the “fairness to men” argument must reflect that it is NOT fair to spring seven-year-old children on unknowing fathers and expect them to be thrilled to support a child they didn’t even know they had. But that is not what I’m saying in any event – I’m saying fathers should be required to support children THEY KNOW ABOUT and shouldn’t be let off the hook just because they don’t want to pay.

Now, maybe you reasonably felt that it was fairer to wash your hands of the child in every way (even after seven years), but the court wouldn’t let you. I respect your right to consider that an unfair result, but I’m not required to agree. The situation is one that I gather is still rather painful and certainly is none of my business in any event, so if you choose not to reply, I would certainly understand.