# are men superior to women ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578 "2002-09-01T18:00:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/41 "2002-09-02T02:07:38Z")
Doesn’t this belong in IMHO? Is the point of the OP even debatable? **Havel.2002** has specified only one criterion for “superiority,” new discoveries, mostly scientific. I see no way to objectively measure “superiority” in general. Was Pavarotti a better tenor than Callas was a soprano? Doesn’t even make sense does it? So what’s to debate with any chance of coming to a conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![robinc308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@robinc308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinc308)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/42 "2002-09-02T02:20:20Z")
Doing a quick google search on gender and intelligence everything I found basically said that, on average, gender makes no significant difference to intelligence - even if the study wasn’t specifically looking at gender. A couple of quick links: [http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/335.asp](http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/335.asp) (see results section) [http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DyeHard/dye990602.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DyeHard/dye990602.html) (First two paragraphs) As for the difference in nobel prizes and new inventions, I think that \*\* Jack Batty\*\* hit the nail on the head. Until recently women have not had the same educational advantages as men, in some places in the world, they still don’t. The same goes for employment - in many engineering fields, women are still under represented. I am a software engineer, and I remember being told at university (sorry, no cite) that in Australia female software engineers account for only 3% of all software engineers. How can you expect that 3% to produce 50% of the new innovations? Now the proportion is increasing slowly - in my year about 10% of SE graduates were female. There are reasons why women don’t get into technical and scientific fields, and that’s another debate, but it has nothing to do with ability. I would also suggest you look at other female dominated professions, for example teaching. Now teachers for the most part don’t invent new things and don’t win nobel prizes. _That’s not their job._ But they do an excellent job of shaping young minds, and maybe some of them will win those prizes or cure cancer. Are we to say that a techer is less significant than the scientist they help produce? Without the teacher, the future scientist will not learn the things that he or she requires as a foundation to the new invention. I guess what I’m saying is that there are some professions that invent things - and these are the professions that tend also to recieve awards such as nobel prizes. At this time in most of these professions (engineering, science, mathematics etc) women are not represented in equal numbers to men. It then follows that the inventions coming out of these professions, will more likely than not be invented by a man (if there are only 10% women - you would expect 10% of such discoveries to be by women - any more and your argument really falls flat). There are many other professions (most I would argue) that for the most part don’t invent and discover new things. (Teaching, police, politics, emergency services, healthcare, HR, construction, finance, insurance and many more) Both men and women work in these fields and are highly competent. Their contribution to society is no less because they use existing technology rather than create it. To measure the value of a person, gender or profession by the number of nobel prizes, patents or new inventions is to demean millions of highly skilled, highly professional individuals without whose contribution life as we know it would be vastly different. The basis of your argument is fundamentally flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/43 "2002-09-02T03:05:51Z")
Try [here](http://www.astr.ua.edu/4000WS/summary.shtml) for a list of women scientists, and [here’s](http://www.inventorsmuseum.com/women.htm) a small list of women inventors. Since the last quarter of the 19th century there have also been a substantial number of women architects in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/44 "2002-09-02T03:14:18Z")
Try [here](http://www.astr.ua.edu/4000WS/summary.shtml) for a list of women scientists, and [here’s](http://www.inventorsmuseum.com/women.htm) a small list of women inventors. Since the last quarter of the 19th century there have also been a substantial number of women architects in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Satyagrahi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Satyagrahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satyagrahi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/45 "2002-09-02T04:27:29Z")
I think that I must remind Dopers that the ‘Location:’ field on the sign-up page is totally voluntary and unverified. Personally, my best guess is that **Havel.2002** is an ex-Taliban trooper in Afghanistan who has somehow found access to the Internet–does Kabul now have cyber-cafes?–and is attempting to make sense of the upheavals in his world…but is far out of his depth on this Board. Perhaps not Afghanistan itself…but I’m willing to bet money, could it be proved or disproved, that he is in reality a member of a very conservative branch of Islam in a nation dominated by such. Obviously, I don’t have a citation for my opinions… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/46 "2002-09-02T04:28:31Z")
I’m going to do something very risky here. I’m actually going to argue in favor of something **Havel.2002** said, as repugnant as most of his posts in this thread have been. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jacksen9 \* > **I see the breakdown of families as a huge problem. I do not think this is the work of women.** Ah! But consider this: What’s the number one statistic cited to support the notion that there are more broken families in recent decades? Why, the **divorce rate** , of course. Why has the divorce rate gotten so high in recent decades? Because of **no-fault divorce laws** , right? Well … who has benefitted the most, financially, because of no-fault divorce laws? According to this (rather biased) article – [No-fault Divorce Laws and Anti-male Bias](http://www.rawls.org/stories_marriage.html) – women have come out the **big** time winners thanks to the passage of no-fault divorce laws. Is it then too much of a leap of conspiracy-theory-style suspicion to suspect that women knew, **before** these no-fault divorce laws were passed, that they’d be the benefactors? Therefore … women intentionally pushed for no-fault divorce laws, even knowing that such laws would result in more single-parent families, because women knew ahead of time that they’d score a big win in their pocketbooks if such laws were passed. There! If that’s not enough of a controversial position to take in an argument, I don’t know what is. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/47 "2002-09-02T05:30:19Z")
Yes, things like [men banning women’s football in Great Britain](http://www.soccergirls.com/soccergirls/theban.html) because it was more popular than men’s football clearly prove that men are superior to women. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/48 "2002-09-02T05:54:48Z")
Well, what do you expect from a country that calls soccer “football” to begin with? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/49 "2002-09-02T06:01:55Z")
The accomplishments or women are often ignored. Ever see the pictures of ENIAC with a bunch of young women standing beside it? Although my highschool text book had that picture, it did not state that those women were the programmers. It mentioned various men associated with the project, but not a single woman. Ever hear of Grace Hopper? She created the idea of a library of computer code. She created the first compiler. She is responsible for many of the ideas that made modern computing possible. Sometimes I have seen her accomplishments mentioned without mentioning her! These sources attribute the accomplishments to a committee or team and don’t make mention of her or the other women involved. Often women go uncited and ignored even when their accomplishments found a disipline. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/50 "2002-09-02T06:11:59Z")
The accomplishments or women are often ignored. Ever see the pictures of ENIAC with a bunch of young women standing beside it? Although my highschool text book had that picture, it did not state that those women were the programmers. It mentioned various men associated with the project, but not a single woman. Ever hear of Grace Hopper? She created the idea of a library of computer code. She created the first compiler. She is responsible for many of the ideas that made modern computing possible. Sometimes I have seen her accomplishments mentioned without mentioning her! These sources attribute the accomplishments to a committee or team and don’t make mention of her or the other women involved. Often women go uncited and ignored even when their accomplishments found a disipline. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/51 "2002-09-02T06:20:54Z")
Ever wonder why there were no women generals in World War II? Here’s a hint: Congress wouldn’t let women become generals. That law wasn’t changed until 1967. How can we ever know whether women are equal to men when women have never been – and still aren’t – given the chance? BTW, the current Air Force “top gun” is a woman. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/52 "2002-09-02T06:25:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*I’m going to do something very risky here. > > What’s the number one statistic cited to support the notion that there are more broken families in recent decades? Why, the **divorce rate** , of course. Why has the divorce rate gotten so high in recent decades? Because of **no-fault divorce laws** , right? > > Well … who has benefitted the most, financially, because of no-fault divorce laws? According to this (rather biased) article – [http://www.rawls.org/stories\_marriage.html](http://www.rawls.org/stories_marriage.html) – women have come out the **big** time winners thanks to the passage of no-fault divorce laws. > \*\* I’m far from an expert in the sociology of families. Just the same I have a pretty good BS detector. Whenever I see a complex subject like divorce and disfunctional families ascribed to a single cause my nose starts to wrinkle because I’m pretty sure a big bull has left a deposit nearby. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/53 "2002-09-02T06:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lee \* > **Ever hear of Grace Hopper? She created the idea of a library of computer code. She created the first compiler. She is responsible for many of the ideas that made modern computing possible.** Yes, but she was also largely responsible for COBOL. And laying **that** big of a curse on the face of humanity kinda offsets her other accomplishments. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/54 "2002-09-02T06:40:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > **Whenever I see a complex subject like divorce and disfunctional families ascribed to a single cause my nose starts to wrinkle because I’m pretty sure a big bull has left a deposit nearby.** But if I don’t get to ascribe all the ills of the world to a single root cause, it won’t make for a good conspiracy theory! Work with me here, people! ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/55 "2002-09-02T06:41:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\* > Yes, but she was also largely responsible for COBOL. And laying **that** big of a curse on the face of humanity kinda offsets her other accomplishments. 😉 \*\* “In my life I build a thousand bridges, but do they call me Luigi the bridgebuilder? No …” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/56 "2002-09-02T06:42:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\* > But if I don’t get to ascribe all the ills of the world to a single root cause, it won’t make for a good conspiracy theory! Work with me here, people! \*\* OK, so you were being ironic and I missed it. Happens from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![watch\_the\_world\_burn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/278dde/32.png) [@watch\_the\_world\_burn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watch_the_world_burn)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/57 "2002-09-02T07:03:07Z")
First off, I do believe women are equal to men. I’ve known a few really great ones. One question I always wonder about is, why if women are equal in intelligence, have they been “put down” by men for so many years? Why are 99.9% of the great known inventors, leaders, explorers, etc… men? How did the world come to be ruled by men instead of women? The answers I have received to this are physical strength and the woman’s role in reproduction… I don’t buy either. Humans are much weaker than most mammals on earth, yet we have conquered them. Strength is not an issue. The child birth role? I doubt it. If anything that should be an advantage. Many female animals use it to dominate males. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/58 "2002-09-02T11:33:29Z")
Hey Havel, how many Nobel prizes have you won in the sciences? If the answer is none does that mean you are inferior to the women who have won? Why don’t we start a list of great female scientists: Grace Hopper has been mentioned, so I will add **Ada Byron, Carolyn Porco, Jocelyn Bell, Rosalind Franklin**. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/59 "2002-09-02T12:52:39Z")
YES! Women are inferior to men Definitely. In various places and points in history (and some current) People of one ethnic origin people have been inferior people of another ethnic origin. Adherents of one religion have been inferior to adherents of another religion. People of one sexual orientation have been inferior to people of another sexual orientation. And people of one gender have been inferior to people of another gender. Now as to whether there’s any _ **inherent** _ superiority/inferiority, we may never know because there are other factors involved and it’s difficult to get a clean sample. Any group that finds itself in a superior position tends to effect changes that benefit it’s own interests and maintain or strengthen their position of superiority; the inferior group are discouraged from pursuing anything that might advance them. So yes, women are inferior to men at the moment; thankfully (where I live) this is nowhere near as extreme as once it was, but an imbalance remains; is this imbalance the result of some fundamental inbuilt inequality? I don’t think so. It all depends on how you measure inferiority of course, as others have said. The Nobel prize winners thing is a complete red herring and cannot be considered an objective measure of ability unless you are prepared to make huge adjustments to take into consideration that the female winners had the male establishment actively dragging them down all the time. > [@](#): > > [Marie Curie] was the star student in her class. Her personal losses did not block her academic success. After graduating at the age of 15, Maria hoped to get an advanced degree, but while Joseph was able to enroll in the medical school at the University of Warsaw, women were not allowed to. In 1891, she attended Sorbonne and changed her name to Marie. Marie realized that neither her math or science background nor her ability in technical French equaled that of her fellow students. Refusing to let go of her goals, she was determined to overcome these drawbacks through hard work. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578/60 "2002-09-02T12:57:54Z")
Oops; I forgot to attribute that quote. [http://www.kings.edu/womens\_history/mariecurie.html](http://www.kings.edu/womens_history/mariecurie.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-men-superior-to-women/126578.md?page=4)