# Are men's deaths/injuries less tragic than women's deaths/injuries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861 "2015-12-08T22:10:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/1 "2015-12-08T22:10:54Z")
Some SDMB posters have brought up this issue in other threads. Is or should men’s deaths/injuries be considered less tragic than women’s deaths/injuries? > [@Ban on combat lifted = women registering for Selective Service?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ban-on-combat-lifted-women-registering-for-selective-service/729721/32): > > I have long wondered why it is somehow more acceptable for a man to come back home in a box than a woman. Shouldn’t it be equally appalling for either gender? Aren’t they all equally human beings? > [@Am I the only one who finds the battered, bloody faces of female ring fighters disturbing?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-finds-the-battered-bloody-faces-of-female-ring-fighters-disturbing/738657/17): > > If I’m watching women’s soccer or basketball, I really don’t like it when players get hurt. With men’s sports, it doesn’t bother me nearly as much. > [@Am I the only one who finds the battered, bloody faces of female ring fighters disturbing?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-the-only-one-who-finds-the-battered-bloody-faces-of-female-ring-fighters-disturbing/738657/1): > > I guess it’s all what you’re used to. I don’t follow boxing or UFC sports much, and pics of beaten male boxers does not raise an eyebrow in me, but I found the video and pics of the Rousey - Holm fight splashed all over the media to be viscerally disturbing. > > I get that most of commentary was that Rousey was an arrogant ass who got too big for her britches and got the whipping she deserved, and objectively Holm was amazing in action. She was like a sinewy panther as she controlled the action and rained down shots. > > But the aftermath… Rousey sitting there stunned with her bloody and battered face, it was just too much like a domestic violence beating or maybe I’m not used to seeing women with that kind of damage. Even if she was a jerk I felt sorry for her. There’s just this visceral “eesh” you feel in the pit of your stomach looking at those pics. > > I appreciate the athleticism but I don’t think I’m ever going to be a big fan of women’s fighting. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/2 "2015-12-08T22:15:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Some SDMB posters have brought up this issue in other threads. Is or should men’s deaths/injuries be considered less tragic than women’s deaths/injuries? Should? I don’t know if ‘should’ really comes into it one way or another. The real issue would be does society accept the loss of a man easier than the loss of a woman, and I’d have to go with ‘yes’ to that…as has been the case pretty much throughout history going back to pre-history and probably pre-homo sapiens. Individually, of course, MMV, but in the grand scheme you don’t really need as many males as females (and don’t need those males to live as long) to keep the species going and ticking along. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/3 "2015-12-08T23:11:22Z")
There is a longstanding traditional (and fundamentally sexist) assumption that women should be more carefully protected from danger or injury than men are. As **XT** noted, this probably has its roots in prehistoric patriarchal societies’ desire to maximize and control reproductive opportunities. If significant numbers of women, especially pre-menopausal women, are getting seriously injured or killed, the overall fertility of the society takes a hit. If similar numbers of men are getting injured or killed, that doesn’t slow down the breeding process nearly as much. This ancient prejudice in favor of disproportionately shielding women from physical harm has persisted into modern times even in developed societies. (Somewhat illogically, too, given that in such societies the process of childbirth, which a majority of women undergo, is far more painful as well as potentially injurious or life-threatening than any exclusively male ordeal undergone by a majority of men. In fact, I can’t even think of **any** painful and physically dangerous ordeal that **most** men and **only** men undergo in such societies. I suppose almost every man suffers a testicular impact from time to time and I’m told that really hurts, but it doesn’t sound comparable to the fairly prolonged and intense traumas of labor and delivery.) So it still makes a lot of people more viscerally uncomfortable to see a woman get hurt or killed than to see the same thing happen to a man. To answer the OP’s question, though: No, of course it’s not in any way less tragic/deplorable for a man to be hurt or killed than for a woman. It’s just that we as a society/species have a long history of being somewhat culturally desensitized to men’s physical suffering and oversensitized to women’s. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/4 "2015-12-09T00:37:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s just that we as a society/species have a long history of being somewhat culturally desensitized to men’s physical suffering and oversensitized to women’s. \*\*That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain’t I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain’t I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain’t I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother’s grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain’t I a woman? \*\* This idea that women were precious and coddled was never true. It’s only something that men told women to hold them back by putting them on pedestals. And only rich women. Poor women slaved and suffered, died in childbirth as often as the young men died in battle - but the (male) authors and the (male) playwrights and the (male) sculptors didn’t make portraits of that. Women slave and suffer and die - and men don’t even see it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/5 "2015-12-09T02:51:03Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > This idea that women were precious and coddled was never true. It was never anywhere near **universally** true, but as your own Sojourner Truth quote shows, it was certainly a well-recognized assumption in some elite parts of very many societies. Note also that I didn’t claim that “women were precious and coddled”, and you are rather distorting my remarks to ascribe “this idea” to me. What I said was simply that there’s a longstanding societal assumption that women should be **more** shielded from accidental injury and death than men are. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/6 "2015-12-09T03:34:57Z")
I agree with others that in terms of _should_ they should be treated the same, but it’s a bit like asking me to care equally whether a family member or a stranger dies…there are various psychological reasons for caring more about one than the other. I’m a big guy, and so the only physical threat to me is usually adult men. At some deep level it’s difficult to be entirely sympathetic towards entities that still represent a threat. Also, there are certain social expectations I need to live up to (regarding bravery, resilience to pain etc), and it would be difficult to maintain the cognitive dissonance of living up to those obligations myself but not expecting other men to do so. Also, I can give another example for the OP: > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > There are very good reasons for why there should be a general social understanding that, at some level, men’s lives actually are less valuable than women. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/7 "2015-12-09T06:22:22Z")
I think it’s possible the perception of a life valued is related to the support networks it was involved with - women build various support networks and, to some extent, that network will grieve a loss. And women generally grieve more openly that do men, and women will have more female relationships than men. Hence they will grieve openly for more women than men. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/8 "2015-12-09T06:48:15Z")
Should a movie star or rock star or sports figure be mourned more than a construction worker or bus driver who gets killed? Ideally, no. In practice, yes, because it’s a feature of our culture. Should the death of a child be more tragic than the death of someone elderly? Ideally, no: the value of the individual is not exchangeable as in coin, but unique and inherent. But in practice, yes, because it’s how we’ve been acculturated. Is the loss of twenty lives, together, in a mass accident, more horrible than the loss of twenty isolated lives in scattered incidents? You’d imagine it shouldn’t be, but the fact is that we apply a strange kind of horror to deaths in groups that we don’t hold for individual deaths. We’re social animals, with social instincts, and we are brought up with societal myths and values and narratives. This is why we see paradoxical answers given to “Would you push a man in front of a train to save twenty others” questions. We don’t believe in people as chess-pieces, but as persons, having roles. This is why “The Lifeboat Game” is so horrible: it makes us try to reckon the values of those roles. I’d give my life to save my sister. But…she’d give her life to save me. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/9 "2015-12-10T02:18:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > There is a longstanding traditional (and fundamentally sexist) assumption that women should be more carefully protected from danger or injury than men are. As **XT** noted, this probably has its roots in prehistoric patriarchal societies’ desire to maximize and control reproductive opportunities. If significant numbers of women, especially pre-menopausal women, are getting seriously injured or killed, the overall fertility of the society takes a hit. If similar numbers of men are getting injured or killed, that doesn’t slow down the breeding process nearly as much. I don’t think that’s the reason, at least not primarily. There’s a much more obvious reason, which can account for why in every society ever, men make up most of the military and most other jobs involving physical combat or other grave physical danger. Women are, on average, physically smaller and weaker than men. Or put the other way around, men are, on average, physically larger and stronger than women. Thus to most people it makes sense that the majority of military and other physically dangerous tasks should be done by men. Men are more likely to complete the tasks successfully, and to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/10 "2015-12-10T03:15:28Z")
No, just funnier. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/11 "2015-12-10T03:39:34Z")
Agreed with Kimstu. So often, there seems to be the idea that women are fragile, helpless, stupid, and irrational, like toddlers only somewhat taller. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/12 "2015-12-10T03:57:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … If significant numbers of women, especially pre-menopausal women, are getting seriously injured or killed, the overall fertility of the society takes a hit. If similar numbers of men are getting injured or killed, that doesn’t slow down the breeding process nearly as much. … In general I mistrust arguments based on prehistoric values, but I do agree this is the basis; women invest at least two years in every child, men can get by with less than a minute. In theory, the loss of a female is much more important to the group. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/13 "2015-12-10T04:23:40Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Some SDMB posters have brought up this issue in other threads. Is or should men’s deaths/injuries be considered less tragic than women’s deaths/injuries? No. > [@Mijin](#): > > I agree with others that in terms of _should_ they should be treated the same, but it’s a bit like asking me to care equally whether a family member or a stranger dies…there are various psychological reasons for caring more about one than the other. > > I’m a big guy, and so the only physical threat to me is usually adult men. At some deep level it’s difficult to be entirely sympathetic towards entities that still represent a threat. > Also, there are certain social expectations I need to live up to (regarding bravery, resilience to pain etc), and it would be difficult to maintain the cognitive dissonance of living up to those obligations myself but not expecting other men to do so. This should hardly be difficult. You’ve pretty much already recognized that these expectations are bunk. Even if you find it difficult to change yourself, if should take only a little mental work on yourself to stop judging others by it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/14 "2015-12-10T04:48:52Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I don’t think that’s the reason, at least not primarily. There’s a much more obvious reason, which can account for why in every society ever, men make up most of the military and most other jobs involving physical combat or other grave physical danger. > > Women are, on average, physically smaller and weaker than men. Or put the other way around, men are, on average, physically larger and stronger than women. Thus to most people it makes sense that the majority of military and other physically dangerous tasks should be done by men. Men are more likely to complete the tasks successfully, and to survive. I very much doubt that that’s the reason why most ancient societies _rigidly excluded **all** women_ from certain physically dangerous activities. If it were just a matter of maximizing size and strength, then small weak men would be disadvantaged too. But even small weak men have traditionally been considered eligible for warfare, etc., where even big strong women have not. Furthermore, it’s not as though we have to think of women as **competing** with men for a limited number of opportunities to encounter physical danger. Including women **as well as** men in, say, warfare would be advantageous for a given number of male fighters up against an army with an equal number of male fighters that **didn’t** allow women to fight. Even though the average woman is not likely to win a fight against the average man, the average four or five women are. Of course, the female fighters would tend to have higher casualty rates than male ones, but if you were correct in assuming that it’s not their higher reproductive value that traditionally disqualifies women from war, that wouldn’t matter. **j666** is right that in general we should be skeptical of simplistic evolutionary arguments to explain complex human social behavior. But sometimes simple biological facts are important and crucial enough to warrant such an argument. I don’t see any valid reason for discounting the basic biological explanation for the observed fact that traditionally in human societies, women have been both much less reproductively expendable than men and also much more restricted in their participation in various (non-childbirth-related) dangerous activities. Especially when you consider that pre-modern women used to die in childbirth a LOT: any traditional society that allowed women to participate in other similarly dangerous activities as well could run a serious risk of population crash. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/15 "2015-12-10T04:48:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This should hardly be difficult. You’ve pretty much already recognized that these expectations are bunk. No, I don’t think that’s a fair summary of what I said. I live right now in a culture very different to the one I grew up in. I’m acutely aware of all the things that are just social convention, and I have no problem breaking such conventions wherever I see fit. But as long as I want to be a part of society, I don’t get to just wish them away. Obligations to show bravery, tolerance of pain etc, are still pretty big. If I run away from danger I could become a social pariah. And this is bound to affect how I view other people in dangerous situations too, whether I choose to admit it or not. > [@](#): > > Even if you find it difficult to change yourself, if should take only a little mental work on yourself to stop judging others by it. It’s not about judging. I was talking about the instinctive, emotional reaction. Note that this reaction has pretty much no bearing on anything. Whether I feel the same emotional response when I see a woman or guy hurt on the news has no bearing on anything, as I can still _consciously_ say “That guy was the victim of a great injustice, something needs to be done!” or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/16 "2015-12-10T14:32:14Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If I run away from danger I could become a social pariah. What kind of social circle are you in? What kinds of dangers are you not allowed to flee from? Are you a soldier in a combat zone? I’d be curious about more detail here. > [@](#): > > And this is bound to affect how I view other people in dangerous situations too, whether I choose to admit it or not. > > It’s not about judging. I was talking about the instinctive, emotional reaction. Note that this reaction has pretty much no bearing on anything. Whether I feel the same emotional response when I see a woman or guy hurt on the news has no bearing on anything, as I can still _consciously_ say “That guy was the victim of a great injustice, something needs to be done!” or whatever. It seems to me that you are over-emphasizing your “instinctive, emotional reaction.” Just in two posts, you’ve demonstrated a pretty sophisticated level of self-awareness. Instinctive, emotional reactions are not carved in stone. You can do something about them. When I discover that I am having an instinctive, emotional reaction that is unjustified or unfair or incorrect or whatever, I take note of it, and whenever I feel it, I immediately remind myself that it’s the wrong reaction. This kind of mental work, while not a magical solution, usually starts showing some kind of result pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/17 "2015-12-10T14:45:06Z")
We evolved as hunter-gatherers, where men did most of the higher risk hunting and women did more of the lower-risk gathering. Since one man can impregnate multiple women but women can only give birth to one child at a time, and since hunting (and war) are higher risk, men are more expendable. If a woman were subject both to the risks of hunting as well as the risk of childbirth, then more women are going to die, and then no only do you lose the woman and her babies, but children she has already borne are going to be at higher risk for lack of care. Add to that the fact that men engage in other higher risk behaviors, because they are more aggressive and because women are tied down more by child rearing, so the death of a man is going to be more common. It has little to do with “should” - it has to do with the survival of the group. One man and multiple women are going to produce more children than one woman and multiple men. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/18 "2015-12-10T14:59:17Z")
I don’t think anyone is questioning that that is sound reasoning for hunter-gatherers. However, we are not hunter-gatherers. Should we continue to act as if we are? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/19 "2015-12-10T15:07:17Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Obligations to show bravery, tolerance of pain etc, are still pretty big. If I run away from danger I could become a social pariah. And this is bound to affect how I view other people in dangerous situations too, whether I choose to admit it or not. Like Ascenray, I’m confused by this. I expect my husband to flee danger like a motherfuck. Danger is a thing to be avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861/20 "2015-12-10T15:08:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What kind of social circle are you in? What kinds of dangers are you not allowed to flee from? Are you a soldier in a combat zone? I’d be curious about more detail here. For example a couple months back some guys showed up at our office saying that the building owner owed them money (it later transpired it was the previous leaseholder). They were shouting and intimidating people, and they even started trying to disconnect and take some computers. I was the only guy in the office and I decided to ask the guys to come out to the reception and we’ll talk calmly about it and I asked my colleagues to call the cops. I’m not trying to sound like a big hero for doing this, and it’s not really in my character to just run away in this situation, but my point is just that if I had, absolutely there would be social consequences to that. I’d lose face to my colleagues and anyone they know. > [@](#): > > Instinctive, emotional reactions are not carved in stone. You can do something about them. > > When I discover that I am having an instinctive, emotional reaction that is unjustified or unfair or incorrect or whatever, I take note of it, and whenever I feel it, I immediately remind myself that it’s the wrong reaction. This kind of mental work, while not a magical solution, usually starts showing some kind of result pretty quickly. Well I would disagree about how common and how effectively we can consciously overwrite our instincts but it’s besides the point anyway. I was just saying it’s my instinctive feeling that has no bearing on anything, I made no right or wrong claim. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-mens-deaths-injuries-less-tragic-than-womens-deaths-injuries/739861.md?page=2)