# Are Merit Systems in Academia and Work a Method of Enforcing White Dominance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468 "2018-03-13T03:22:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/81 "2018-03-14T22:17:59Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > So, to properly answer the original question in the thread title: > > Yes, merit systems **are** methods of enforcing white dominance, because (for most practical purposes) the ones that are used aren’t actually based on merit - they just like to make that claim. And if all such systems **were** suddenly based on pure merit and nothing else, the results (in terms of white vs not white) would gradually change. Do you agree with _my_ addendum? These “merit” systems in many cases actually give preferential treatment to minorities. Even if they didn’t, what they usually measure is parental investment, which differs widely from household to household and obviously a parent cannot invest more than they have. This is where single parent households - which all races have, though as a percentage they are much higher in black households - really screw the next generation because mommy has to work a job, usually low paying, and can barely keep the essentials paid. So in reality those disadvantaged blacks should be sharing a common cause with disadvantaged whites (and other groups). Because both sides are getting the shaft for mostly similar reasons. And if they team together they’d actually be a large enough block of people (and voters) to make a difference. The current progressive policy, where it’s “everyone against white people” doesn’t work out as well because they are 64% of the population. For example, one unjust thing is that if you are poor, and live in a poor neighborhood, your neighborhood can’t pay shit for property taxes. So the schools are bad and there is less funding for police. This disadvantages all skin color. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/82 "2018-03-14T22:40:51Z")
SamuelA: I agree partly with you. I think we are all to some extent like the “blind men describing an elephant”, and the truth is a combination of a lot of things. I think the extent to which “merit” systems support minorities by added rules is a lot less (orders of magnitude less) than the extent to which they support (also by added rules, many of them unwritten and unspoken) people who are both rich and white. I think stripping away the unwritten and/or unspoken rules, and stripping away anyone’s ability to reinstate them - or indeed create more of them - is the important part of that issue. If merit was defined strictly, in the narrow subject area being applied for (no extracurricular points allowed, etc etc), and all other criteria were prohibited even as adjunct measurements, so that it was either merit in that field or pure chance, that would be a major positive change. I think it’s clear, whether anyone likes to admit it or not, that being black in the United States today is a disadvantage per se, and not just as a statistical accident of also being poor or whatever else. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/83 "2018-03-14T23:41:51Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I think it’s clear, whether anyone likes to admit it or not, that being black in the United States today is a disadvantage per se, and not just as a statistical accident of also being poor or whatever else. I agree with this. What I’m saying is that this may be true, but the “silent majority” of white people aren’t going to take up your cause if the alleged benefit is “absolutely nothing, fuck you, you’re part of the oppressor class”. This is the flaw behind “black lives matter”. People criticizing it just get labeled as racists. When reality the slogan should sum up the fact that none of us want to be shot dead by the police if we ain’t packing or _legitimately_ threatening the officers. Hand in pocket while surrounded by 20 cops with assault rifles? Yeah not a threat. Charging forward with a claymore over our head and it’s just a couple cops and not that much distance? Fine, that’s a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/84 "2018-03-15T00:36:23Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > For example, one unjust thing is that if you are poor, and live in a poor neighborhood, your neighborhood can’t pay shit for property taxes. So the schools are bad and there is less funding for police. This disadvantages all skin color. That’s absolutely true, and is the reason that some states - California and New Jersey for two, pool property tax money at the state level and allocate it back to the districts based on criteria other than property values in those districts. Doesn’t solve the complete problem, since those districts often need more money to deal with kids who have been disadvantaged from birth, but it helps a bit. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/85 "2018-03-15T06:14:46Z")
Justice not being currently fashionable is no fault of the people who aren’t being treated justly. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/86 "2018-03-15T11:36:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > When I mean some, I say “some”. When I mean most, I say “most”. When I mean greater than one would expect from their distribution in the population, I say “disproportionate”. And when you don’t say any of those things? Say, for example, like this: > [@Shodan](#): > > I wonder if white progressives and blacks have thought thru how it sounds to say “black people can’t be expected to compete on merit with whites and Asians.” Incidentally, since apparently I struggle to interpret what you write correctly, I’d sure appreciate that clarification I asked for earlier: > [@Gyrate](#): > > And I’m also curious about these white progressives and blacks who are saying “black people can’t be expected to compete on merit with whites and Asians.” I mean, I suppose one could note that that phrase could interpreted to mean “the existence of significant societal barriers affecting black people prevent merit and hard work from being sufficient conditions for success” (which is the argument that Dr. Putnam is making) or to mean “black people aren’t capable of competing in a system based on merit and hard work because they’re not good enough” (which is the argument racist assholes use), and that the ambiguity in interpretation could be used by disingenuous individuals to imply a conflation between white progressives and racists, but I’m sure that’s not something you would do. Perhaps you could clarify exactly what you meant, to avoid the rest of us jumping to conclusions you didn’t intend. I’m sure it was merely an oversight that you hadn’t done so already. > [@](#): > > Why does your study establish causality and mine only correlation? It’s not what the studies establish; it’s the conclusions drawn from them. The conclusion you are drawing from yours does not follow from the study you cite. > [@](#): > > Then don’t try to get me to speak for him. Can you point to where I was trying to do that? > [@Bone](#): > > This rhetorical device you are using is better suited to other forums. Please do not name call. > > [/moderating] Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/87 "2018-03-15T12:36:25Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I agree with this. What I’m saying is that this may be true, but the “silent majority” of white people aren’t going to take up your cause if the alleged benefit is “absolutely nothing, fuck you, you’re part of the oppressor class”. This is the flaw behind “black lives matter”. People criticizing it just get labeled as racists. > > When reality the slogan should sum up the fact that none of us want to be shot dead by the police if we ain’t packing or _legitimately_ threatening the officers. Hand in pocket while surrounded by 20 cops with assault rifles? Yeah not a threat. Charging forward with a claymore over our head and it’s just a couple cops and not that much distance? Fine, that’s a threat. If Black Lives Matter were instead called “Concerned Citizens Against Police Brutality” and focused on all misuses of police force, without emphasizing the racial aspect, I think they’d be a lot more successful politically. Even if all you truly cared about was blacks getting unjustly killed by police, it would still make sense strategically to frame it in race neutral terms, to win over white voters. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/88 "2018-03-15T13:37:38Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Even if all you truly cared about was blacks getting unjustly killed by police, it would still make sense strategically to frame it in race neutral terms, to win over white voters. Isn’t it weird for those who say things like this to think “Hey, white people can’t be arsed if it’s only about black people getting unjustly killed by police.” Isn’t that an indication that we have a huge racism problem? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/89 "2018-03-15T14:27:15Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Isn’t it weird for those who say things like this to think “Hey, white people can’t be arsed if it’s only about black people getting unjustly killed by police.” > > Isn’t that an indication that we have a huge racism problem? Immanuel Kant wrote "“Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made.” In-group bias is simply part of the human condition. There’s no way we’re going to stamp it out completely. I’m a pragmatist who is interested in achieving results, even if it’s not achieved in the most morally pure fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/90 "2018-03-15T14:27:21Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s not what the studies establish; it’s the conclusions drawn from them. The conclusion you are drawing from yours does not follow from the study you cite. Then maybe you can explain your point a bit. Are you drawing any conclusions from the study you cited in the _Independent_, like “white privilege means police don’t shoot you if you resist arrest”, or are you asserting it as a mere correlation and it doesn’t prove anything about causality? If you are just saying “this doesn’t prove that white privilege causes anything”, then fine and I agree with you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/91 "2018-03-15T14:29:02Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Isn’t it weird for those who say things like this to think “Hey, white people can’t be arsed if it’s only about black people getting unjustly killed by police.” This. The slogan “Black Lives Matter” makes a very important point **beyond** the general principle of “police brutality is bad”. It’s pointing out that one key reason police brutality so disproportionately affects black lives is that our society has an entrenched historical legacy of believing that black lives **don’t** actually matter very much, certainly not as much as white lives. I agree with **Blalron** that many white people are deeply uncomfortable with having this pointed out and would feel happier with the BLM police-reform movement if they stopped doing so. But I disagree with **Blalron** that white people’s discomfort about this issue ought to be pampered by rebranding the movement to something less disturbing to their feefees. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/92 "2018-03-15T14:39:00Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Isn’t it weird for those who say things like this to think “Hey, white people can’t be arsed if it’s only about black people getting unjustly killed by police.” One of the major problems of the BLM movement is not that white people don’t care very much if it’s black folks getting unjustly killed - it is that white people don’t care very much if it is black folks who are justly killed. BLM kicks up an apparently equal fuss over both kinds of shootings. And tends to trumpet both kinds as equally evidential that there is a huge racism problem, even when it isn’t. It isn’t always wrong - even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while - but BLM should pick their battles more carefully. Hollering “hands up - don’t shoot” is fine unless the shootee in question didn’t have his hands up, wasn’t shot in the back, and was ten minutes off a strong arm robbery and assaulting a police officer at the time. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/93 "2018-03-15T14:42:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I agree with **Blalron** that many white people are deeply uncomfortable with having this pointed out and would feel happier with the BLM police-reform movement if they stopped doing so. But I disagree with **Blalron** that white people’s discomfort about this issue ought to be pampered by rebranding the movement to something less disturbing to their feefees. I don’t think wagging your finger at white people and calling them racist is ever going to work, especially when the racism is mostly occurring on a subconscious level. They observe the surface level of their own awareness, don’t see any racism, and therefore resent any implications that racism could be influencing their reactions. I don’t see any way we are going to get past that, except by side stepping the issue of race entirely and framing issues in colorblind terms. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/94 "2018-03-15T14:52:27Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I don’t think wagging your finger at white people and calling them racist is ever going to work, especially when the racism is mostly occurring on a subconscious level. They observe the surface level of their own awareness, don’t see any racism, and therefore resent any implications that racism could be influencing their reactions. I don’t see any way we are going to get past that, except by side stepping the issue of race entirely and framing issues in colorblind terms. In other words, because white people are going to reflexively “resent any implications that racism could be influencing their reactions” we should just give up honestly discussing or even mentioning the ways that racism influences white people’s reactions? I really don’t want there to be an elephant in my living room. So obviously the only way to “get past that” when you see an elephant in my living room is to refrain from mentioning it. Yup, that sounds both logical and effective. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/95 "2018-03-15T14:58:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I really don’t want there to be an elephant in my living room. So obviously the only way to “get past that” when you see an elephant in my living room is to refrain from mentioning it. Yup, that sounds both logical and effective. In the long run, the only real solution is that proposed by the fictional Senator Bulworth: > [@Senator Jay Billington Bulworth](#): > > All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin’ everybody 'til they’re all the same color. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/96 "2018-03-15T15:09:05Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I don’t think wagging your finger at white people and calling them racist is ever going to work, especially when the racism is mostly occurring on a subconscious level. They observe the surface level of their own awareness, don’t see any racism, and therefore resent any implications that racism could be influencing their reactions. I don’t see any way we are going to get past that, except by side stepping the issue of race entirely and framing issues in colorblind terms. A lot of people have become aware of their racist thinking by having it pointed out to them. I know that’s happened to me. Now, I’m not free of any racial bias, but I try to be aware of it and counter it with reality. And sometimes, I can cut the thinking off at the pass. We can choose to try, or we can choose not to try. Either way, we’re making a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/97 "2018-03-15T15:13:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It isn’t always wrong - even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while - but BLM should pick their battles more carefully. Hollering “hands up - don’t shoot” is fine unless the shootee in question didn’t have his hands up, wasn’t shot in the back, and was ten minutes off a strong arm robbery and assaulting a police officer at the time. Michael Brown seems to have turned into a religious icon for BLM. You can no more convince them that Brown deserved to be shot than you can convince a devout Christian that Jesus didn’t rise from the dead. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/98 "2018-03-15T15:38:13Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > In the long run, the only real solution is that proposed by the fictional Senator Bulworth: > > > [@Senator Jay Billington Bulworth](#): > > > > All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin’ everybody 'til they’re all the same color. Possibly true. But I would think a lot of us whites would find it kind of embarrassing that the only realistic possibility for reaching a situation where the social effects of white racism can be openly and honestly discussed is to completely eliminate racial whiteness as a distinct phenotypic category from the human species. Well, okay, if that’s what it takes, but talk about oversensitive. _“As long as there are still any white people in existence on the planet, we can’t talk about white privilege!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/99 "2018-03-15T15:44:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, okay, if that’s what it takes, but talk about oversensitive. _“As long as there are still any white people in existence on the planet, we can’t talk about white privilege!”_ They don’t have to be eliminated, they just need to become a small enough minority that politicians don’t have to routinely cater to oversensitive white folk. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/100 "2018-03-15T15:49:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Possibly true. But I would think a lot of us whites would find it kind of embarrassing that the only realistic possibility for reaching a situation where the social effects of white racism can be openly and honestly discussed is to completely eliminate racial whiteness as a distinct phenotypic category from the human species. > > Well, okay, if that’s what it takes, but talk about oversensitive. _“As long as there are still any white people in existence on the planet, we can’t talk about white privilege!”_ The most remarkable thing about this is the assumption that it’s easier for black people to overcome all of the barriers set up by white people over hundreds of years than it is for white people to examine their own thinking. One side is told to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and the other that it’s just too hard and scary to think about stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=6)