# Are Merit Systems in Academia and Work a Method of Enforcing White Dominance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468 "2018-03-13T03:22:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/101 "2018-03-15T15:57:06Z")
Mark Lilla, author of The Once And Future Liberal, makes this [analogy](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/15/543730312/the-once-and-future-liberal-looks-at-shortfalls-of-american-liberalism): > [@](#): > > SIEGEL: You write in the book, electoral politics is a little like fishing. And you say, (reading) when you fish, you get up early in the morning. You go to where the fish are, not to where you might wish them to be. You drop bait into the water, bait being defined as something they want to eat, not as healthy choices. And once the fish realize they’re hooked, they may resist. Let them. Loosen your line. Eventually they’ll calm down. The identity liberals’ approach to fishing is to remain on shore, yelling at the fish about the historical wrongs visited on them by the sea and the need for aquatic life to renounce its privilege, all in the hope that the fish will collectively confess their sins and swim to shore to be netted. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/102 "2018-03-15T16:08:06Z")
I see. Tasty bait for white people. Bootstraps for everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/103 "2018-03-15T17:35:42Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I see. Tasty bait for white people. Bootstraps for everyone else. No. I wouldn’t quite put it like that. A vote is a vote is a vote. It doesn’t matter HOW you convince someone to sign on to your liberal political agenda, so long as you can convince them. You may be unsatisfied that white people don’t want to confess their racist sinfulness and self-flaggelate while they vote Democrat, but it’s better than having them vote Republican. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/104 "2018-03-15T17:41:11Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > No. I wouldn’t quite put it like that. A vote is a vote is a vote. It doesn’t matter HOW you convince someone to sign on to your liberal political agenda, so long as you can convince them. You may be unsatisfied that white people don’t want to confess their racist sinfulness and self-flaggelate while they vote Democrat, but it’s better than having them vote Republican. But appealing to and enabling racists just fills your organization up with racists. That’s the tiger the Republicans have by the tail right now, and I’m fine letting them keep it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/105 "2018-03-15T17:51:44Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > The most remarkable thing about this is the assumption that it’s easier for black people to overcome all of the barriers set up by white people over hundreds of years than it is for white people to examine their own thinking. I don’t know that it is easier, but it might be more productive, to work on yourself rather than everybody else. If you have to choose where to spend your energy. Which is easier - graduating and not getting anyone pregnant until you are married and able to support your own family, or convincing white society that it is their fault when you don’t? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/106 "2018-03-15T17:59:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then maybe you can explain your point a bit. Are you drawing any conclusions from the study you cited in the _Independent_, like “white privilege means police don’t shoot you if you resist arrest”, or are you asserting it as a mere correlation and it doesn’t prove anything about causality? > > If you are just saying “this doesn’t prove that white privilege causes anything”, then fine and I agree with you. > > Regards, > Shodan Perhaps you could provide the clarification I’ve asked you for twice before we move onto your next questionable characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/107 "2018-03-15T18:03:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t know that it is easier, but it might be more productive, to work on yourself rather than everybody else. If you have to choose where to spend your energy. > > Which is easier - graduating and not getting anyone pregnant until you are married and able to support your own family, or convincing white society that it is their fault when you don’t? > > Regards, > Shodan Yes, there are systemic obstacles to success that we as a society should work to correct. No, that doesn’t excuse dropping out of school and having unprotected sex. Both those sentences are true, and I’ve now pissed off both the Left and the Right by saying them. Public responsibility and personal responsibility can coexist side by side. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/108 "2018-03-15T18:03:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which is easier - graduating and not getting anyone pregnant until you are married and able to support your own family, or convincing white society that it is their fault when you don’t? Not really an either-or proposition, even if one doesn’t adopt such a strawmanny mispresentation of option 2. It’s perfectly possible **both** to take responsibility for one’s own individual choices **and** honestly recognize the impacts of society’s legacy of racism and white privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/109 "2018-03-15T18:21:42Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > But appealing to and enabling racists just fills your organization up with racists. That’s the tiger the Republicans have by the tail right now, and I’m fine letting them keep it. If by “appealing to and enabling racists” you mean “avoid explicit appeals to racial grievances, and instead emphasize our commonalities as citizens and how we should help each other in colorblind ways”… guilty as charged. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/110 "2018-03-15T18:22:10Z")
Sin is by and large a conservatives-only concept, essentially irrelevant to liberals. Assuming that liberals must be talking about sin is a common mistake for conservatives to make, because it’s not easy for either group to put on the mindset of the other. To a liberal, sin is like those paint-splatter canvases in an art gallery - other people may claim there’s something to it, and you try to be polite to them, but you’d have to be pretty gullible to actually buy it. Everybody wants justice. Some people are willing to believe that justice _for themselves only_ is a good idea - or even possible. Justice that’s only for some people, isn’t justice at all. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/111 "2018-03-15T18:22:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Not really an either-or proposition, even if one doesn’t adopt such a strawmanny mispresentation of option 2. It’s perfectly possible **both** to take responsibility for one’s own individual choices **and** honestly recognize the impacts of society’s legacy of racism and white privilege. In fact, it’s absolutely necessary to take responsibility for one’s individual choices in order to honestly recognize those impacts. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/112 "2018-03-15T18:24:53Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If by “appealing to and enabling racists” you mean “not triggering racial biases by explicit appeals to racial grievances, and instead emphasize our commonalities as citizens and how we should help each other in colorblind ways”… guilty as charged. Wait. I’m “triggering racial biases” by talking about racism? It’s my fault people are racist now? LOVE IT. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/113 "2018-03-15T18:40:28Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Wait. I’m “triggering racial biases” by talking about racism? It’s my fault people are racist now? LOVE IT. No, it’s your fault racist people feel bad. If you hadn’t mentioned their racism they might have done something about their racism (even though they haven’t done anything yet or even shown any awareness of their racism) but now that you hurt their feelings they couldn’t possibly deal with racism because you’re the real racist now and they’re going to go post furiously on messageboards about what a bad person you are. I remember the same bullshit regarding sexism during the Gamergate thing - lots of fragile men complaining that they couldn’t possibly do anything about the horrific sexism evident in the community because some women were talking about things that some other men had done and their feelings were being hurt by proxy and it was all the mean women’s faults and #notallmen etc etc. And of course there were all the “deplorables” who stomped off in a huff just because that nasty women pointed out their various bigoted statements and behaviors, and they \*totally \*would have considered voting for her if she hadn’t said such a mean thing but now they were forced to vote for Donald Trump and it’s all Hillary’s fault that Trump won. Ultimately it’s about people who will always put themselves and their feelings first no matter how stupid or petty it is, particularly if they get to play the victim and absolve themselves of any wrongdoing. “Sure, people are threatening to rape and murder your whole family but first we have to deal with that mean thing you said about someone in the same broad demographic group as me because that’s what’s **really** important!”. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/114 "2018-03-15T18:48:50Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Wait. I’m “triggering racial biases” by talking about racism? It’s my fault people are racist now? LOVE IT. It’s not your fault, it’s just reality. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but it’s something Democrats have to accept if they want to win elections. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/115 "2018-03-15T18:55:16Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > It’s not your fault, it’s just reality. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but it’s something Democrats have to accept if they want to win elections. So you are saying racists get mad when other people call them racist, and, instead of looking inward toward themselves to discover and eradicate their racism, they simply get mad and then vote for someone unqualified for President because he doesn’t call them racist? The hell you say! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/116 "2018-03-15T19:05:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s perfectly possible **both** to take responsibility for one’s own individual choices **and** honestly recognize the impacts of society’s legacy of racism and white privilege. Then I look forward to liberals or BLM putting an emphasis on the responsibility of blacks for their own behavior as they do on white privilege. Especially in their flagship case of Michael Brown, whose shooting seems to have almost nothing at all to do with white privilege and everything to do with responsible individual choices, or their lack. Perhaps the NFL will be taking a knee during the National Anthem to protest the illegitimacy rate or black-on-black crime. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/117 "2018-03-15T19:11:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then I look forward to liberals or BLM putting an emphasis on the responsibility of blacks for their own behavior as they do on white privilege. Perhaps you’re unaware of the tons and tons of organizing and events that many black folks do in their communities against violence and to encourage positive and beneficial behavior and actions for kids and adults. Do you need cites, or did you already know that this stuff occurred? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/118 "2018-03-15T19:21:48Z")
I’m going to step back from this, **Shodan**. Don’t worry about engaging with me if there’s any possibility of snark; from the language you’re using, I’m sensing incredible contempt for black people, and I’m finding it extremely (and personally) ugly. You probably don’t mean it this way, and hopefully you don’t have any sort of unconscious feelings that are similar to this, but this very ugly sense I get from your language usage renders the chances of reasonable debate on this pretty unlikely, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/119 "2018-03-15T20:33:28Z")
Do you really find it so upsetting to hear mention of personal responsibility, or the suggestion that maybe it isn’t all white people’s fault? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/120 "2018-03-15T21:16:03Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I agree with this. What I’m saying is that this may be true, but the “silent majority” of white people aren’t going to take up your cause if the alleged benefit is “absolutely nothing, fuck you, you’re part of the oppressor class”. This is the flaw behind “black lives matter”. People criticizing it just get labeled as racists. > > When reality the slogan should sum up the fact that none of us want to be shot dead by the police if we ain’t packing or _legitimately_ threatening the officers. Hand in pocket while surrounded by 20 cops with assault rifles? Yeah not a threat. Charging forward with a claymore over our head and it’s just a couple cops and not that much distance? Fine, that’s a threat. All they are asking for is equal treatment. And, it goes way beyond having their kids shot. It’s just that having your kids actually shot is more motivating than much of the rest of the constant problem of interaction with police in these neighborhoods. I really do see their problem as being significant and as requiring specific action. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=7)