# Are Merit Systems in Academia and Work a Method of Enforcing White Dominance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468 "2018-03-13T03:22:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/121 "2018-03-15T21:18:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you really find it so upsetting to hear mention of personal responsibility, or the suggestion that maybe it isn’t all white people’s fault? > > Regards, > Shodan No, that doesn’t bother me at all. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/122 "2018-03-15T21:29:37Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > All they are asking for is equal treatment. Cops wrongfully shoot white people as well. Maybe not as often, but it does happen. And as you probably have heard in the news, it is rare for any serious punishment to be levied. In any case, treating everyone better is a goal everyone can get behind. And if it happens to help black people more, that’s fine too. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/123 "2018-03-15T21:38:37Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Cops wrongfully shoot white people as well. Maybe not as often, but it does happen. And as you probably have heard in the news, it is rare for any serious punishment to be levied. > > In any case, treating everyone better is a goal everyone can get behind. And if it happens to help black people more, that’s fine too. Here’s 4 different scenarios: 1. Black cop shoots black suspect unjustly. 2. Black cop shoots white suspect unjustly. 3. White cop shoots white suspect unjustly. 4. White cop shoots black suspect unjustly. I believe all 4 of these are equally bad, and deserve just as much condemnation. It seems strange to me to focus on #4 to the exclusion of 1,2, and 3. That’s what Black Lives Matter seems to do. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/124 "2018-03-15T21:45:09Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Here’s 4 different scenarios: > > 1. Black cop shoots black suspect unjustly. > 2. Black cop shoots white suspect unjustly. > 3. White cop shoots white suspect unjustly. > 4. White cop shoots black suspect unjustly. > > I believe all 4 of these are equally bad, and deserve just as much condemnation. It seems strange to me to focus on #4 to the exclusion of 1,2, and 3. That’s what Black Lives Matter seems to do. Nope, #1 occurs disproportionately too. Black people don’t automatically get exempt from all anti-black prejudice in a historically white-supremacist society just by being black. In any case, nobody is arguing that #2 and #3 don’t deserve condemnation or should be “excluded” from consideration. The point of BLM is fundamentally that #4 (and to a lesser extent #1) happen **disproportionately more often** than #2 and #3, and that they are treated on average as less serious than #2 and #3. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/125 "2018-03-15T21:56:20Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Cops wrongfully shoot white people as well. Maybe not as often, but it does happen. And as you probably have heard in the news, it is rare for any serious punishment to be levied. > > In any case, treating everyone better is a goal everyone can get behind. And if it happens to help black people more, that’s fine too. I don’t believe that “happening to help black people” backhandedly, while claiming to be doing something else because “it’s a goal everyone can get behind”, is valid in any sense **in this context**. I don’t agree that it could even be a useful stopgap. Because the problem is that this goal that you’re saying **not** everyone can get behind, is the important one. And the reason why not everyone can get behind that goal is they are afraid that justice is zero-sum - they think “well, if all these black people are going to be treated justly, then that means the government is going to come in and steal some of **MY** justice, and give it to _them_ instead!” Tiptoeing around it makes it worse, by condoning and encouraging that reaction. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/126 "2018-03-15T21:57:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These fantasy-world liberals are awful people. I’d hate them too, and so would most of the real-world liberals I know. You mean the fantasy world liberal who actually posted this shit? The shit I quoted and you want to pretend does not exist except in a fantasy world? Note, I didn’t say all liberals believed this, I said that Angela Putnams statement was the liberal version of original sin. How in the fuck can you claim it is fantasy world when I quoted exactly what she said? It is rather simple. You can’t. You fall back to your normal knee jerk and irrational crap. Slee ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/127 "2018-03-15T22:07:00Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Cops wrongfully shoot white people as well. Maybe not as often, but it does happen. And as you probably have heard in the news, it is rare for any serious punishment to be levied. > > In any case, treating everyone better is a goal everyone can get behind. And if it happens to help black people more, that’s fine too. The problem in places like Fergusson are serious cases that deserve specific attention. And again, it’s not just cops killing kids. The behavior of the police force in that place (and others) is simply not acceptable. What might be a successful effort here in Seattle and other similar places would not even START to resolve what’s going on in some of these other places, and suggesting that it is the same problem really doesn’t make any sense AT ALL. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/128 "2018-03-15T22:54:19Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > You mean the fantasy world liberal who actually posted this shit? The shit I quoted and you want to pretend does not exist except in a fantasy world? Note, I didn’t say all liberals believed this, I said that Angela Putnams statement was the liberal version of original sin. > > How in the fuck can you claim it is fantasy world when I quoted exactly what she said? > > It is rather simple. You can’t. You fall back to your normal knee jerk and irrational crap. > Slee No, just the part I quoted. You (not Putnams) said liberals believe that if you are white you are guilty. That’s the fantasy. I don’t actually know anyone who believes that. Maybe someone out there does. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/129 "2018-03-15T22:57:27Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Here’s 4 different scenarios: > > 1. Black cop shoots black suspect unjustly. > 2. Black cop shoots white suspect unjustly. > 3. White cop shoots white suspect unjustly. > 4. White cop shoots black suspect unjustly. > > I believe all 4 of these are equally bad, and deserve just as much condemnation. It seems strange to me to focus on #4 to the exclusion of 1,2, and 3. That’s what Black Lives Matter seems to do. It seems strange to me that a group of people exercising their First Amendment right to protest the unjust shooting of a person by police should be considered the “bad guy” in this scenario, because they happen to be black. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/130 "2018-03-15T23:16:47Z")
Imagine… Police administrator newly hired from another planet, calls in the local police chief, has questions to ask… > [@](#): > > - This story going around that we’re shooting people from one group a lot more than any other groups - is this true? > > - > - Yes sir. > > - The ones who are getting shot - what are they doing to get themselves shot? > > - > - Nothing. Well, except you can tell right away that they are part of that group. > > - So, about this illegal group… > > - > - Oh, it’s not an illegal group, sorry I didn’t make that clear, sir. > > - You mean, we’re shooting people because of their looks? > > - > - Ummmm… Well, not exactly… > > - This is the stupidest thing I ever heard. It better be fixed by Friday. This whole thing is just **not** complicated. AT ALL. Pretending it’s complicated is part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/131 "2018-03-15T23:26:34Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Imagine… Police administrator newly hired from another planet, calls in the local police chief, has questions to ask… > > This whole thing is just **not** complicated. AT ALL. Pretending it’s complicated is part of the problem. It’s complicated in that there are inherent biases at work and it takes work and openness to begin to address those biases. Many people simply feel more threatened by black men than by white men. They feel that way because of inherent (or sometimes completely open) bias, but they will attempt to justify it or say that you can’t judge any specific incident because it’s completely individual, and yet all of those completely individual circumstances always add up to a disproportionate number of black men dying. If people won’t confront their own thinking (and will have hysterics if anyone else confronts their thinking) then it’s complicated to fix it. Black people can’t become less threatening if the threat level was manufactured to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/132 "2018-03-15T23:37:07Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Here’s 4 different scenarios: > > 1. Black cop shoots black suspect unjustly. > 2. Black cop shoots white suspect unjustly. > 3. White cop shoots white suspect unjustly. > 4. White cop shoots black suspect unjustly. > > I believe all 4 of these are equally bad, and deserve just as much condemnation. It seems strange to me to focus on #4 to the exclusion of 1,2, and 3. That’s what Black Lives Matter seems to do. This seems strange. There are a lot of different organizations that focus on a single issue even though other issues are just as important. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/133 "2018-03-15T23:40:10Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I think it’s clear, whether anyone likes to admit it or not, that being black in the United States today is a disadvantage per se, and not just as a statistical accident of also being poor or whatever else. I admit it. But what do you think those disadvantaged people should do while they are waiting for white people to dismantle systemic racism? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/134 "2018-03-16T00:25:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I admit it. But what do you think those disadvantaged people should do while they are waiting for white people to dismantle systemic racism? - Complain - Start an organization to do something about it - Do something about it individually - Vote, and try to get elected - Campaign for the removal of racist officials, and for tough minimum sentences for racist crimes - Refuse to accept systemic racism, and bring it up in polite company - Attempt all possible legal means to disrupt and interfere in the formation or perpetuation of racist policies and policies that leave room for racism … I’m probably missing some. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/135 "2018-03-16T00:27:42Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > - Complain > > - Start an organization to do something about it > > - Do something about it individually > > - Vote, and try to get elected > > - Campaign for the removal of racist officials, and for tough minimum sentences for racist crimes > > - Refuse to accept systemic racism, and bring it up in polite company > > - Attempt all possible legal means to disrupt and interfere in the formation or perpetuation of racist policies and policies that leave room for racism > > … I’m probably missing some. That’s a good list. Can you expound upon “Do something about it individually”? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/136 "2018-03-16T00:27:57Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > It’s complicated in that there are inherent biases at work and it takes work and openness to begin to address those biases. Many people simply feel more threatened by black men than by white men. They feel that way because of inherent (or sometimes completely open) bias, but they will attempt to justify it or say that you can’t judge any specific incident because it’s completely individual, and yet all of those completely individual circumstances always add up to a disproportionate number of black men dying. > > If people won’t confront their own thinking (and will have hysterics if anyone else confronts their thinking) then it’s complicated to fix it. Black people can’t become less threatening if the threat level was manufactured to begin with. Every cop who shoots an innocent black person gets life in prison without chance of parole? That would be an easy start, at least. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/137 "2018-03-16T00:29:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s a good list. Can you expound upon “Do something about it individually”? The important word there is “individually”. All doing the same things is group, not individual. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/138 "2018-03-16T00:32:21Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > The important word there is “individually”. All doing the same things is group, not individual. Sure, I agree. What can an individual do then? You stated that the disadvantaged should “Do something about it individually” What, exactly, should the disadvantaged be doing individually? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/139 "2018-03-16T00:59:24Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Every cop who shoots an innocent black person gets life in prison without chance of parole? That would be an easy start, at least. Well, we tend not to put people away for life if they don’t deliberately murder someone, and I’m not particularly eager to increase prison sentences for anything shy of deliberate murder. There are definitely cases where it’s quite clear there is an innocent person getting shot. There are cases where it’s quite clear there is a guilty person getting shot. The tricky thing is the number of cases in the middle. Racial bias in the aggregate is easy to find. It can be hard to identify on a case-by-case basis. And in individual circumstances, it can be even harder to prove. (And I’m not okay with lowering the burden of proof when it comes to putting someone away for life.) That’s why we need to get at the heart of the matter—bias—instead of nibbling around the edges and putting someone away for life when they are a provable-even-to-apologists racist who murdered someone in cold blood. Most people aren’t that blatant. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/140 "2018-03-16T01:26:52Z")
I sure wouldn’t want to be operated on by a surgeon who hadn’t gotten into med school, or hired, on the basis of merit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=8)