# Are Merit Systems in Academia and Work a Method of Enforcing White Dominance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468 "2018-03-13T03:22:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/141 "2018-03-16T01:31:17Z")
Also, as a poster pointed out upthread, typically in academic systems that rely on or emphasize merit (especially through standardized testing, etc.) it is Asians that have been represented the most on a per capita basis, even more so than white students. I am waiting for the Asian Privilege movement to start. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/142 "2018-03-16T05:26:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Also, as a poster pointed out upthread, typically in academic systems that rely on or emphasize merit (especially through standardized testing, etc.) it is Asians that have been represented the most on a per capita basis, even more so than white students. I am waiting for the Asian Privilege movement to start. Exactly. Another factor that many seem to miss is the following. It’s 1965. White men dominate the workforce and academic boards. They occupy all positions of power. The reason why Asians (and women) have jobs and med school degrees and board of director seats today is that these same allegedly racist white men _let them_. They decided to accept candidates who weren’t white men and gradually diversified. One thing that angers many white men is that there seems to be this tendency where once a minority is in a position of power, suddenly that minority is openly discriminatory. This is why you see programmer shops where somehow 95% of the workers are Indian, the Huffington post where they are all women, and so on and so forth. This is upsetting to those who are victims of it. Most educated white men just want it to be fair. No bias either way. And if there are certain jobs that for whatever reason, more candidates from certain races and genders are in the candidate pool, well, that’s how it is. Nothing is ever fair. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/143 "2018-03-16T05:40:43Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > It’s 1965. White men dominate the workforce and academic boards. They occupy all positions of power. The reason why Asians (and women) have jobs and med school degrees and board of director seats today is that these same allegedly racist white men _let them_. :dubious: Well, after they got sued and/or reported to the EEOC, at least. There wasn’t as much spontaneous relinquishing of traditional privilege and power imbalance as you seem to imagine there was. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/144 "2018-03-16T11:11:39Z")
What gets me, looking at her picture, I cant figure out what race she is? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/145 "2018-03-16T18:13:09Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > What gets me, looking at her picture, I cant figure out what race she is? Because you don’t see “race”, just “human beings”? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/146 "2018-03-16T18:16:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I sure wouldn’t want to be operated on by a surgeon who hadn’t gotten into med school, or hired, on the basis of merit. Exactly. And I wouldn’t want to conduct business with an investment banker or lawyer who hasn’t sufficiently demonstrated his character on his prep school lacrosse field or crew regatta! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/147 "2018-03-16T20:41:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you really find it so upsetting to hear mention of personal responsibility, or the suggestion that maybe it isn’t all white people’s fault? > > Regards, > Shodan That’s honestly what you thought he meant? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/148 "2018-03-16T20:49:06Z")
Well, that was what I have been talking about. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/149 "2018-03-16T21:04:17Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Most educated white men just want it to be fair. No bias either way. And if there are certain jobs that for whatever reason, more candidates from certain races and genders are in the candidate pool, well, that’s how it is. Nothing is ever fair. You don’t know anything about hiring people, do you? If you send recruiters to a subset of colleges, all of which are predominantly white, you wind up with a predominantly white candidate pool. You can be perfectly fair about recruiting from that pool and wind up with a biased result. Not that hiring is perfectly fair, as the tests with identical resumes half with white sounding names and half with black sounding names demonstrates. There is also an old boys network in operation, where people like to hire those who went to the same or similar schools as they did. Things are a lot more complicated than you might imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/150 "2018-03-16T21:09:33Z")
Another thing, she is basing all she is saying on what books and studies she has read. She never talked about working in a multi-racial environment. She also admits she doesnt have children but still feels qualified to know how to talk to them about racial issues. I too thought I knew about racial issues until I was the only white guy working at an inner city school. At my current job often I am the only white guy. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/151 "2018-03-16T22:03:27Z")
I worked my ass off as a teenager. Always had a job or three. Learned a work ethic that stuck with me to this day. I wouldn’t have been hired for almost any of those jobs had I been black. Wouldn’t have even gotten my foot in the door. I learned a work ethic, but those doors were opened by privileges that I didn’t earn. I think it is up to an individual to seize what they have and do the best they can with it. I think it is up to society to ensure that everyone has at least similar opportunities to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/152 "2018-03-17T03:59:15Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Yes. As long as they have legal status. I don’t know what that means. I’m a human. I guess I have legal status? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/153 "2018-03-17T10:38:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You don’t know anything about hiring people, do you? If you send recruiters to a subset of colleges, all of which are predominantly white, you wind up with a predominantly white candidate pool. You can be perfectly fair about recruiting from that pool and wind up with a biased result… “The pool” means “the nationwide pool”. Most jobs in America are skewed one way or another. Weirdly, I don’t think they give male candidates preferential treatment when they apply to be elementary school teachers or other traditional ‘women only’ jobs… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/154 "2018-03-17T20:20:59Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > “The pool” means “the nationwide pool”. Most jobs in America are skewed one way or another. Weirdly, I don’t think they give male candidates preferential treatment when they apply to be elementary school teachers or other traditional ‘women only’ jobs… No one recruits from the nationwide pool. Many jobs are recruited locally - no one is going to fly someone in for a burger flipping or waitron jobs. Jobs I’ve recruited for have been national, but the pool was a set of universities I was allowed to recruit from, with a few extras if I could hack it. A bit over 100 years ago most teachers were men, but it turned into a woman’s job. I suspect the pay might be better if it was considered a men’s job. Any group can be biased in hiring if they have the power to do so. Since white males are so ingrained in positions of power, we tend to do more of it at the moment. But I’ve seen examples of management teams suspiciously alike and not consisting of white males. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/155 "2018-03-17T20:32:22Z")
Again, I cannot see this woman’s writings going off of any experience she has. She seems to get her information from “research” and reading others peoples work. But then, now she is in academia where she will get a decent salary package, health insurance, retirement, and will make alot of money giving lectures and writing books. Why even listen to a person like this? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/156 "2018-03-17T20:35:30Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > What gets me, looking at her picture, I cant figure out what race she is? Ok, I read her webpage again and she says she is white. I would soooo love her to move into an all black neighborhood and work a part time job where she is the only white person and THEN come tell us how to live our lives. Sorry, academia is a bubble. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/157 "2018-03-17T22:17:10Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Weirdly, I don’t think they give male candidates preferential treatment when they apply to be elementary school teachers or other traditional ‘women only’ jobs… Weirdly (:dubious: ), you are entirely wrong about that.[For instance:](https://www.denverpost.com/2011/02/07/increasingly-male-teachers-found-at-head-of-elementary-class/) > [@](#): > > […] Denver Public Schools, at 17.7 percent [male elementary teachers], ranked second-highest among the large districts. > > “Now, more than before, we are looking specifically on how better to recruit men,” says Jeannine Carter, director of diversity initiatives for DPS. […] > > […] most of his male classmates head straight to high school or middle school, often lured by the added attraction — and income — of coaching sports. […] > > Men were fixtures at the lower grades until about the mid-19th century, after which their numbers plummeted just before World War I as job options for men expanded and women could be paid less, says Bryan G. Nelson, executive director of Men Teach, an organization that aims to increase men in the field. […] > > Still, he adds, a recent survey by his organization showed that low pay and status, along with concerns about stereotypes and allegations of inappropriate behavior, continue to deter some men from elementary education. There are many discussions of the [“glass escalator” phenomenon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_escalator), in which men are so sought-after in various low-status/low-pay professions that have traditionally been female (teaching, nursing, etc.) that the comparatively few men who do enter them get rapidly advanced and promoted. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/158 "2018-03-17T22:40:00Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Ok, I read her webpage again and she says she is white. > > I would soooo love her to move into an all black neighborhood and work a part time job where she is the only white person and THEN come tell us how to live our lives. Sorry, academia is a bubble. I’m curious. I’m a black person who has lived and worked in predominately white places my entire adult life. Do you think that makes me an expert in white-black relations? Would you give my experience being a racial minority more credence than some other person’s? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/159 "2018-03-17T23:41:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m curious. I’m a black person who has lived and worked in predominately white places my entire adult life. Do you think that makes me an expert in white-black relations? Would you give my experience being a racial minority more credence than some other person’s? Well yes and I would deeply value your insight and opinion. Why? Because you have practical experience. As compared to this professor whom it seems gets most of her “education” from just reading books. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/160 "2018-03-18T00:45:52Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well yes and I would deeply value your insight and opinion. Why? Because you have practical experience. As compared to this professor whom it seems gets most of her “education” from just reading books. A basic understanding of US history is sufficient to understand white privilege and how it is reflected in current disparities. You don’t have to travel back in time to understand US history. You can just read a few good textbooks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=9)