# Are Merit Systems in Academia and Work a Method of Enforcing White Dominance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468 "2018-03-13T03:22:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/161 "2018-03-18T13:31:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > A basic understanding of US history is sufficient to understand white privilege and how it is reflected in current disparities. You don’t have to travel back in time to understand US history. You can just read a few good textbooks. Yes, books are good but I really feel it takes personal experience. Living and working with and in communities where YOU are the minority. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/162 "2018-03-18T21:58:58Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well yes and I would deeply value your insight and opinion. Why? Because you have practical experience. As compared to this professor whom it seems gets most of her “education” from just reading books. I suppose English Lit professors “just” read books. Sociology professors, history professors, anthropologists, and most others don’t just read books, they go to original documents or do studies in the field. That way they pick up experience from lots of people, not just one narrow view. Not to mention that they grew up and live in the world just like you did. Some might well have been minorities growing up also. BTW, if you think academics do nothing but sip tea and read, you know nothing about academic departments. They are a bit more genteel than the Mafia, but I’d bet twice as cutthroat as anywhere you’ve ever worked. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/163 "2018-03-18T22:00:02Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Yes, books are good but I really feel it takes personal experience. Living and working with and in communities where YOU are the minority. I’ve worked in places where I was the minority also. It does not give me special knowledge that I can generalize across everyone. Your experiences don’t give you that knowledge either. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/164 "2018-03-19T07:36:25Z")
IMO it’s wrong to say that there’s no knowledge to generalize from after experience being in a minority at work, and also wrong to claim to know a lot about the subject after limited experience. (One career, one or two parts of the country, etc). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/165 "2018-03-19T07:50:02Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > IMO it’s wrong to say that there’s no knowledge to generalize from after experience being in a minority at work, and also wrong to claim to know a lot about the subject after limited experience. (One career, one or two parts of the country, etc). You have knowledge, sure, but other people in similar situations may have different knowledge. Person X may claim he is discriminated against because he is white - but he might be discriminated against because he is incompetent or because he is an asshat. That’s why you need statistics and data, not anecdotes. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/166 "2018-03-19T13:11:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I suppose English Lit professors “just” read books. Sociology professors, history professors, anthropologists, and most others don’t just read books, they go to original documents or do studies in the field. That way they pick up experience from lots of people, not just one narrow view. Not to mention that they grew up and live in the world just like you did. Some might well have been minorities growing up also. > BTW, if you think academics do nothing but sip tea and read, you know nothing about academic departments. They are a bit more genteel than the Mafia, but I’d bet twice as cutthroat as anywhere you’ve ever worked. I dont think your examples are the same as this womans. Lets look at your example. Say history. Yes, a professor of history could just do all their study in libraries but wouldnt their knowledge be better if say they worked as a historical reenact-or? Or you mention anthropology. Wouldnt they actually have to live in and be around those groups which they claim to be an expert on? BTW, yes I know a little about an academics life. They spend time teaching, grading papers, helping students, and writing and publishing. “Publish or perish”. But they also can make good money giving speeches. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/167 "2018-03-19T21:33:02Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I dont think your examples are the same as this womans. > > Lets look at your example. Say history. Yes, a professor of history could just do all their study in libraries but wouldnt their knowledge be better if say they worked as a historical reenact-or? Where do you think the information the reenactors use comes from? > [@](#): > > Or you mention anthropology. Wouldnt they actually have to live in and be around those groups which they claim to be an expert on? And they do do this. Paleontologists go to the field also, or study the fossils gotten by people who go to the field. > [@](#): > > BTW, yes I know a little about an academics life. They spend time teaching, grading papers, helping students, and writing and publishing. “Publish or perish”. But they also can make good money giving speeches. You’ve neglected doing the research that you write the papers on. That is the part where you go into the field, or go find original documents, or go to the lab, or go to the telescope, or go talk to people in industry. That is the crucial part. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/168 "2018-03-20T14:24:05Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > [FONT="]Angela Putnam, a Pennsylvania State University-Brandywine professor thinks college faculty need to do more to undermine their students’ belief in “meritocracy” and the value of “hard work” [(link)](https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9874). Her view is that meritocracy entrenches white power and privilege. Her view is bigoted and racist, not to mention moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Itself](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d07c76/32.png) [@Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/169 "2018-03-24T19:25:41Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Lets look at your example. Say history. Yes, a professor of history could just do all their study in libraries but wouldnt their knowledge be better if say they worked as a historical reenact-or? Of course not. The goal of an academia historian is to use primary sources and other academic research to make new contributions to the understanding of history. The goal of a historical reenactor is to take existing knowledge about particular people or places and provide a mildly entertaining show. It’s like saying that a general would have better knowledge if they worked a Civil War reenactor. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Or you mention anthropology. Wouldnt they actually have to live in and be around those groups which they claim to be an expert on? Some do. (“Claim” to be?) Of course, it’s a bit tricky if one is researching, say, ancient Rome. But it doesn’t sound like you have much respect for the idea that thinking and reading and writing is most of what academics do. (At least at research universities, they’re also not there primarily to teach. Stephen Hawking, for example, was not kept on at Cambridge for decades becades they desperately wanted him to teach kinematics to undergrads.) A scientist studying, say, fluid dynamics is not trying to be a plumber and not even trying to give plumbers better tools for their job. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > BTW, yes I know a little about an academics life. They spend time teaching, grading papers, helping students, and writing and publishing. “Publish or perish”. But they also can make good money giving speeches. Yeah, I’m making millions per year giving speeches to all the wealthy companies and rich benefactors who desperately want me to talk to them about topological K-theory. ---
**Author:** ![Lorne\_Armstrong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@Lorne\_Armstrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lorne_Armstrong)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/170 "2018-03-24T19:35:36Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > This is the liberal version of original sin. If you are born (and white) you are guilty. > > Slee When the term “white privilege” was coined, for liberals it’s like Christmas comes everyday. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/171 "2018-03-25T22:08:30Z")
> [@Itself](#): > > Some do. (“Claim” to be?) Of course, it’s a bit tricky if one is researching, say, ancient Rome. But it doesn’t sound like you have much respect for the idea that thinking and reading and writing is most of what academics do. (At least at research universities, they’re also not there primarily to teach. Stephen Hawking, for example, was not kept on at Cambridge for decades becades they desperately wanted him to teach kinematics to undergrads.) A scientist studying, say, fluid dynamics is not trying to be a plumber and not even trying to give plumbers better tools for their job. All true, but when I was at MIT I found that my famous professors were often very good teachers also, because they were excited about the field and had a lot of insight beyond what was in the textbook - if they didn’t write the textbook, that is. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I’m making millions per year giving speeches to all the wealthy companies and rich benefactors who desperately want me to talk to them about topological K-theory. You shoulda been a business school professor. My daughter doesn’t have tenure yet, and has only been in her school a few years, and is hardly famous, but she is already securing speaking gigs. CS professors don’t do any better - or if they do my friends haven’t fessed up. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/172 "2018-03-25T22:11:28Z")
> [@Lorne\_Armstrong](#): > > When the term “white privilege” was coined, for liberals it’s like Christmas comes everyday. I’m white. I don’t feel any guilt, maybe because my ancestors were being oppressed in Russia the same time the slaves were being oppressed here, but I’m awake enough to realize I’ve benefited from white privilege. If you think you haven’t, you should get a clue. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/173 "2018-03-26T20:42:40Z")
> [@Itself](#): > > Yeah, I’m making millions per year giving speeches to all the wealthy companies and rich benefactors who desperately want me to talk to them about topological K-theory. Some do pretty good. The trick is finding your niche, and getting in with the right people. Sometimes the more radical you are the more money you make. Its marketing yourself just like anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/174 "2018-03-26T21:51:17Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Some do pretty good. The trick is finding your niche, and getting in with the right people. Sometimes the more radical you are the more money you make. > > Its marketing yourself just like anyone else. :dubious: Somehow I rather doubt that **Itself** ’s failure to land lots of lucrative speaking gigs expounding [topological K-theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_K-theory) is primarily a marketing issue. ---
**Author:** ![Itself](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d07c76/32.png) [@Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/175 "2018-03-27T02:35:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > All true, but when I was at MIT I found that my famous professors were often very good teachers also, because they were excited about the field and had a lot of insight beyond what was in the textbook - if they didn’t write the textbook, that is. Neat, I went to MIT too and loved it. I was Course 18 (with some forays into Course 8), and I was actually quite happy with the teaching ability of the professors there. Of course, I wanted to know more than the ordinary material, and the professors were happy to oblige; I think a lot of the bad reputation professors (especially in math) get comes from students who are expecting classes to be a series of drills or exercises like in high school. ---
**Author:** ![Itself](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d07c76/32.png) [@Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/176 "2018-03-27T02:37:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Somehow I rather doubt that **Itself** ’s failure to land lots of lucrative speaking gigs expounding [topological K-theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_K-theory) is primarily a marketing issue. Yeah, I should have linked to a description of what’s a somewhat esoteric area of math and made it clear that that was sarcasm. Despite all the money and sex and drugs that are synonymous with pure math in the popular media, it’s actually not a lucrative field. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/177 "2018-03-27T18:50:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > True about there not being truly level playing fields. But pure merit-based systems are a fantasy, encouraged by those who implement and benefit from them. > I say this as having been inside meritocracies. I’ve done well in them, so this isn’t sour grapes. But anyone who has been involved in merit only performance review knows how iffy the procedure is, even when done by people of good will. When assholes do it and call it meritocracy it is even worse. > I think people who believe meritocracy is wonderful must think each person has a number floating over their heads that gives their merit level. Not quite so simple. > Perhaps people should remember that it is not an even playing field for white people either, though we do start with certain advantages, on average. > **Those who want a meritocracy should maybe start by supporting pre-K education to give all kids access to books and an enriching environment.** I know, that costs money and the rich are starving. Agreed - I think we should be trying to level the playing field at as early a stage as possible, as advantages in early life can snowball. IMO attempting to correct imbalances in the workplace or academia through preferential treatment is going to seem more unfair than ensuring that kids are provided equal resources early in life and continuously as they grow up. Of course this may be an enormously difficult achievement in practice, but it should be where we focus our efforts IMO. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Yes, that’s one of the things we as a society should avoid (or, rather, should strive to dismantle now that it actually exists to a large extent). And we as a society should also avoid perpetuating an entrenched system of racial privilege. Agree that we should avoid perpetuating an entrenched system of racial bias - but I think the language that is used significantly impacts people’s acceptance of the concept. I think the idea of “dismantling white privilege” gives some people the idea that white privilege is something that white people have, that should be taken away - obviously people would be resistant to losing something that purportedly benefits them. If it was instead framed as “everyone should have white privilege”, I think there would be significantly less negative reaction to the concept, even if the outcome is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/178 "2018-03-30T15:31:31Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > Agreed - I think we should be trying to level the playing field at as early a stage as possible, as advantages in early life can snowball. IMO attempting to correct imbalances in the workplace or academia through preferential treatment is going to seem more unfair than ensuring that kids are provided equal resources early in life and continuously as they grow up. Of course this may be an enormously difficult achievement in practice, but it should be where we focus our efforts IMO. > Agree that we should avoid perpetuating an entrenched system of racial bias - but I think the language that is used significantly impacts people’s acceptance of the concept. I think the idea of “dismantling white privilege” gives some people the idea that white privilege is something that white people have, that should be taken away - obviously people would be resistant to losing something that purportedly benefits them. If it was instead framed as “everyone should have white privilege”, I think there would be significantly less negative reaction to the concept, even if the outcome is the same. Preferential treatment to individuals because of their (assumed, purported, declared etc) racial background doesn’t ‘seem’ unfair. It is unfair. It’s a very basic problem with such preferences even ‘for good reasons’. Not to say such policies could never be a net positive. Americans (the generally assumed audience) might be able to consider more objectively whether official lower caste preferences in India have never had any merit. But there’s still no way to twist logic and semantics into saying it’s fair at an individual level. And that’s more of a problem where the supposed goal is a society (eventually, at some point) blind to people’s backgrounds. If the society sees itself as an amalgamation of groups not individuals, as its permanent desired state, it’s easier to justify. Which is one of the roots of the left-right conflict in the US now. And no it’s really not just ‘fantasy world liberals’ who see the permanent state of society as an amalgamation of _groups_ which deserve a particular slice of the pie, as groups. That’s a significant part of left leaning thought now, though the political standard is still to deny that in the field of elective office and present preferences as a means to an end of an individualistic society free of ‘racism’ (which more and more tends to mean though a society free of differences in outcome _by group_, as the only possible metric of individual fairness). It’s fine to say alternatively that differences in outcome by group can be eliminated by giving everyone ‘the same resources when young’ but that’s IMO really beyond ‘difficult in practice’. One reason, a major or the major for many, people strive and struggle is to help their offspring. ‘Imagine no possessions…’ might be deemed ‘difficult in practice’ also I suppose. If ‘same resources’ means funding of basic public services, that’s a fair area for debate. But it’s unrealistic to think that’s the source of most differences in outcome/representation especially in every esoteric niche of a highly complex economy. There’s no clear evidence it’s even a lot of it, public services funding per se. On just changing semantics from ‘white privilege’, or from stripping ‘white privilege’ to giving it to everyone, the semantics are what they are for a reason. In fact what’s mainly being discussed under the heading ‘white privilege’ is black under representation in high academic and economic achievement, with a term which aims at the perceived oppressors (past or present, debate the combination separately), not the perceived victims. Plus the politics of ‘white’ v ‘non-white’ where the numbers are just a lot more favorable politically than setting it out as ‘blacks’ v ‘everyone else’. Asians either have ‘white privilege’ or their degree of out performance is even bigger than it otherwise looks, maybe a combination of the two. But it’s pretty clearly not as simple as just ‘white’, the more so under the recent affectation where some members of religions (Jewish, Muslim) call themselves ‘not white’ just by virtue of that. And categorical assessments of Hispanics in US society are less valid than for any other group (though obviously group categorizations don’t work 100% for individuals of any group). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/179 "2018-03-30T19:35:04Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > In fact what’s mainly being discussed under the heading ‘white privilege’ is black under representation in high academic and economic achievement 😕 Cite? Because IME discussions of white privilege generally focus on a much broader range of societal advantages that come with being white, including the advantage of being able to remain more oblivious to the persistence and effects of racism. Effects on specific educational and economic opportunities are just one part of white privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468/180 "2018-03-30T19:51:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m white. I don’t feel any guilt, maybe because my ancestors were being oppressed in Russia the same time the slaves were being oppressed here, but I’m awake enough to realize I’ve benefited from white privilege. If you think you haven’t, you should get a clue. I think lots of people have privilege that other people don’t have. It’s not just race and gender, either. A poor white kid from Appalachia has less privilege than ANY of the people protesting at Harvard or Yale, regardless of their skin color or gender. In any event, accepting that there is an inequality of opportunity in society does jot in any way degrade the concept of merit or the value of hard work. It’s a leap of logic to go from, ‘some people have privilege’ to ‘therefore, there’s no such thing as merit, and all differences in outcome can be explained by privilege’. But that’s exactly what the postmodern, illiberal left wants us to believe - that all differences between people are the result of power struggles and power imbalances, and that hard work and merit play little to no part in outcomes. We should strive for equality of opportunity. Striving for equality of outcome will lead to tyranny or bankruptcy and human misery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-merit-systems-in-academia-and-work-a-method-of-enforcing-white-dominance/810468.md?page=10)