# Are Middle Eastern Military Forces Incompetant **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168 "2010-09-18T04:02:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/21 "2010-09-18T20:56:03Z")
^ Er cite regards Saudi degrees? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/22 "2010-09-18T20:58:43Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > There are many reasons why most arab/ME armies are of low quality; here are a few: > -using equipment not suitable for the terrain (Iraqi tanks crews died from heat exhaustion-because their Russian-built tanks had no air conditioning. Neither does an Abrams. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/23 "2010-09-18T21:08:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > …Soviet doctrine relied on capable equipment and lots and lots of numbers. Western militaries could not match the numbers so focused on better equipment and training. Who would have prevailed in a Soviet push into western Europe is anyone’s guess… I remember a funny short story about a what-if Soviet invasion of Western Europe. NATO did a massive air drop of unbreakable plastic bottles on the advancing Soviet armor columns with labels reading, “A gift of vodka to our friends of the Warsaw Pact.” The offensive ground to a halt within days as the tankers got totally drunk. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/24 "2010-09-18T23:58:58Z")
> [@](#): > > If you look at Iran v Iraq you can find some intense battles. Iran did exactly what China did in Korea. This is Korean war era American propaganda. The Chinese absolutely did not do that in Korea. Since the Chinese army never at any point had any significant advantage in terms of manpower vis a vis the UN, “Human wave” attacks would have ended very badly for them. The American commanders at the time were simply trying to salvage some respectability from their biggest route since the Ardennes offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Jormungandr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@Jormungandr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jormungandr)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/25 "2010-09-19T00:59:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > There are many reasons why most arab/ME armies are of low quality; here are a few: > -most soldiers are conscripts-with low educational standards and low motivation > -the officers are usually politically connected; the most competent officers are not promoted (they might become a threat to the regime) > -corruption. This is why spare parts are often missing..and a $2,000,000 tank is junk-for want of spare parts. > -overall addiction to braggadocio and posturing-think of Nasser’s boasts that his armies would toss the Zionists into the sea-instead he got clobbered (woke up to find his airforce reduced to burning junk) > -using equipment not suitable for the terrain (Iraqi tanks crews died from heat exhaustion-because their Russian-built tanks had no air conditioning. > An instructive example is that of the Egyptian armies, trapped in the Sinai Desert (in the 1967 war): the troops surrendered _en masse_ because nobody had thought to provide them with adequate drinking water! The Israelis had analyzed the problem, and learned that in a desert environment, a soldier needs 5-6 quarts of water a day-they ran fleets of tanker trucks to the front, to supply their troops. So, brainpower won over brute force (as it usually does). Being smarter and having well trained, motivated officers counts for a lot. A few years ago, I came across an essay that basically said the same thing. It also added how no one wants to take the initiative and responsibility in battle. Unless the command comes from above, and above, etc. no one does anything lest they are blamed for any failure and have to face the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/26 "2010-09-19T01:27:32Z")
I really recommend this book by Kenneth Pollack: [Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948 - 1991](http://www.amazon.com/Arabs-War-Military-Effectiveness-1948-1991/dp/0803287836/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284859247&sr=8-1). It has a very in-depth analysis of the difficulties Arab armies have faced in combat, and examines the military history of Libya, Iraq, Syria, Jordon, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. I don’t have it kicking around near me at the moment and it’s been a while since I read it, but IIRC the biggest problems Arab armies face is a lack of decision making and initiative. Arab armies tend to only do well when following pre-planned scripts, and when the situation changes, they’re lost. They just don’t react well to changing situations. There are also problems with lack of training, as there’s the fear that well-trained armies might revolt and overthrow the government. OTOH, a number of Arab armies excel in other areas. IIRC it was Iraq and Libya that showed real skill in logistics which impressed the author. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/27 "2010-09-19T01:32:21Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > > > Asking the question of why Middle Eastern armies seem so incompetent (and you are really going off only one army and don’t forget you were sucking off the tit of propaganda while you read news stories about the badass Iraqi military) is like asking why is most of America so pathetic at earning money while using your standard to be Bill Gates. > > I also mentioned that the Israelis had demonstrated on multiple occasions that Middle Eastern armies weren’t all that competent. I’m not sure how that counters my overall argument since for most of those wars Israel was armed by Western allies, directly assisted by Western forces and is guaranteed to have conitnued superiority to most other countries in the region (Witness the recent sale of F-15s to Saudi Arabia. Those planes were not sold without Israel agreeing to the conditions and guaranteed inferiority of the planes). My quick look at the Arab-Israeli wars shows Egypt to be one of the main instigators and they did fairly well in the Yom Kippur War, though they might have lost if the war continued. Also, for anyone who is trying to compare military forces by saying one country has this plane or that plane, this tank or that tank, there’s a lot more to warfare than just who’s got what weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/28 "2010-09-19T01:47:58Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Retort: > (1) Whaddabout oil money? > (2) Whaddabout Israel? Seems to me to have all the same disadvantages as its ME neighbors, and no oil money either (substantial US aid, granted, but was even that the case in 1967/1973?) (1) Only 1 oil-producing state is in the G20. Compare the list of [G20](http://www.g20.org/about_what_is_g20.aspx) countries to the list of top [20 militaries](http://www.globalfirepower.com/) according to global firepower. See a relationship? (2) According to this [Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_United_States_military_relations) we were aiding Israel indirectly from about 1960. Later we developed an explicit policy concerning Israel’s military edge: [Quote=Wikipedia] In 1968, with strong support from Congress, U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson approved the sale of F-4 Phantom II fighters to Israel, establishing the precedent for U.S. support for Israel’s qualitative military edge over its neighbors. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/29 "2010-09-19T03:04:48Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > (1) Only 1 oil-producing state is in the G20. Compare the list of [G20](http://www.g20.org/about_what_is_g20.aspx) countries to the list of top [20 militaries](http://www.globalfirepower.com/) according to global firepower. See a relationship? I see that Israel, Egypt and Iran are in the top 20 in military strength while not showing among in the G20 economies. For that matter, so do Turkey, Pakistan, Taiwan, Mexico and North Korea. And there are several G20 members who do not have top 20 militaries (e.g., South Africa) So to answer your question: um, no, not really . . . 😕 Did you have a point? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/30 "2010-09-19T04:23:15Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > > [@Koxinga](#): > > > > Retort: > > (1) Whaddabout oil money? > > (2) Whaddabout Israel? Seems to me to have all the same disadvantages as its ME neighbors, and no oil money either (substantial US aid, granted, but was even that the case in 1967/1973?) > > (1) Only 1 oil-producing state is in the G20. Compare the list of [G20](http://www.g20.org/about_what_is_g20.aspx) countries to the list of top [20 militaries](http://www.globalfirepower.com/) according to global firepower. See a relationship? > (2) According to this [Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_United_States_military_relations) we were aiding Israel indirectly from about 1960. Later we developed an explicit policy concerning Israel’s military edge: > > [Quote=Wikipedia] > In 1968, with strong support from Congress, U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson approved the sale of F-4 Phantom II fighters to Israel, establishing the precedent for U.S. support for Israel’s qualitative military edge over its neighbors. [/QUOTE] Not to totally derail this thread but some people say that Israel never needed America’s aid and it only held them back from wiping out their enemies. ---
**Author:** ![ramel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ramel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ramel)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/31 "2010-09-19T04:33:23Z")
The reason that so many middle eastern militaries are hugely incompetent, is that their governments are dictatorships. Dictatorships are poison to good militaries. Dictators are all paranoid. They’ve got their position as leader through power, and they know it. And the biggest power in their nation is the military. So all dictators ultimately become paranoid and start doing things to their military that make it less of a threat to the leadership. They try to make their military coop proof by doing things like creating a confused mixed chain of command, so no one general can find it easy to use the armed forces against the government. They make generals unquestionably follow orders, or else. Those generals instil an atmosphere of unquestionably following orders to the lower ranks, because they’re scared that someone below them will do something that will upset the dictator. So maybe you have a well trained, motivated military out there somewhere, and a dictator comes into power. Within a decade the rot will start. Troops will stop finding solutions to problems on the spot, and will instead wait for orders from above. The entire armed forces change from an adapting, improvising, thinking organism, to one that waits for orders. When you have that kind of situation, you can only have an early WW1 style military. It may have modern equipment but the way it fights is 1915. The way nations get past early WW1 style of fighting is to allow people at a low level wiggle room and place to improvise and adapt to the actual situation on the ground. Iraq in 1991 was like this, Stalin turned the excellent Russian military of the mid 30s into a coop proof mess by 1941. Adolph Hitler did this towards the end of the war, putting Generals in power not for military ability, but political loyalty. Here’s some footage of the Iran-Iraq war from the 80s [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuaxYPKvXQ0) Notice how basically you’ve got two trench lines of troops and a large number of them just go forward onto the enemy. Very 1915. Modern weapons, old way of fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/32 "2010-09-19T07:12:54Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > > > (1) Only 1 oil-producing state is in the G20. Compare the list of [G20](http://www.g20.org/about_what_is_g20.aspx) countries to the list of top [20 militaries](http://www.globalfirepower.com/) according to global firepower. See a relationship? > > I see that Israel, Egypt and Iran are in the top 20 in military strength while not showing among in the G20 economies. For that matter, so do Turkey, Pakistan, Taiwan, Mexico and North Korea. > > And there are several G20 members who do not have top 20 militaries (e.g., South Africa) > > So to answer your question: um, no, not really . . . 😕 Did you have a point? Since the point is that cash is the best predictor of potential military ability, there should be a strong relationship between wealth (the size of the economy) and military strength. There is, despite the fact that you weren’t reading all that closely (Turkey and Mexico are in both top 20’s). Other than that, pointing out that a few countries did not fit the relationship isn’t negating the fact that wealth is a good predictor and can be argued to be causative. On the other hand, there is no evidence that Arab or Middle Eastern cultures have some innately inferior characteristic preventing them from fighting well in the modern age - other than lots of cash and good friends. **Damuri Ajashi** , I have no ability to argue that point and it may very well be true, but as you indicated it is not the point of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/33 "2010-09-19T07:19:16Z")
When people talk about the war of 98, they often make it seem like Israel had the advantage. It definetly did not. We had less men, less guns, less airplanes, less tanks, etc. Aside from the dedication and heroism of the israeli soldiers, the biggest Arab drawback was their inability to work together. Jordan would do its thing and count on Egypt to support it, but Egypt was busy doing something else. Just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/34 "2010-09-19T08:04:45Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Since the point is that cash is the best predictor of potential military ability, there should be a strong relationship between wealth (the size of the economy) and military strength . . . wealth is a good predictor and can be argued to be causative. I don’t think you understand the relationship between correlation and causation very well. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, there is no evidence that Arab or Middle Eastern cultures have some innately inferior characteristic preventing them from fighting well in the modern age - other than lots of cash and good friends. I think the rest of the thread provides quite a bit of evidence, including the informative insights above on a warrior vs. soldier culture and the corrosive effect of corruption and dictatorship. Did you miss all that? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/35 "2010-09-19T08:34:42Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > > > Since the point is that cash is the best predictor of potential military ability, there should be a strong relationship between wealth (the size of the economy) and military strength . . . wealth is a good predictor and can be argued to be causative. > > I don’t think you understand the relationship between correlation and causation very well. > > > [@](#): > > > > On the other hand, there is no evidence that Arab or Middle Eastern cultures have some innately inferior characteristic preventing them from fighting well in the modern age - other than lots of cash and good friends. > > I think the rest of the thread provides quite a bit of evidence, including the informative insights above on a warrior vs. soldier culture and the corrosive effect of corruption and dictatorship. Did you miss all that? It’s kind of sad that after the last 3 posts you made that you actually question somebody else’s understanding of correlation/causation, the usefulness of one variable in predicting another or any other statistical concept. I didn’t miss any of the other reasons and I have no argument with any of them except warrior/soldier since it sounds nonsensical. I am sure corruption/dictatorship could be a useful predictor of military strength/skill/competency, just not quite as good as wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/36 "2010-09-19T09:54:00Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The other day I was listening to NPR and the host was interviewing a high ranking military officer who was involved in the first Gulf War. This officer said that the U.S. Military overestimated the capabilities of the men serving in the Iraqi army even though the Israelis told them they had nothing to worry about. > … > Is there something about the Middle East that makes them poor soldiers in the modern world? I certainly don’t question their intelligence, their courage, or even their long history of military competence. It’s a bit of a jump from Iraq to the entire Middle East. The US military honestly but grossly overestimated Iraq’s military capabilities before the '91 Gulf War. It’s hard to blame the US military establishment, underestimating an enemy is probably the most common mistake in the history of warfare. The shadow of Vietnam and the underestimation of their will to fight were hanging over everyone’s head; along with that there was an untried all-volunteer military and unproven technology. In retrospect estimates of 10,000 dead liberating Kuwait seem absurd, but that number seemed much more plausible at the time than it does now. The Iraqi army has never performed very well, it was quite inept in both its previous wars against Iran from '80-88 and their participation in the '73 war with Israel. Had it been led and performed competently, the Iraqi 3rd Armored Division would have been a serious threat to an exposed and unprepared right flank of the Israeli advance on Damascus in '73. Instead it stopped in mid-afternoon, didn’t perform the most basic of reconnaissance and walked into hastily prepared Israeli positions and was taken by ambush the next morning, losing ~1/3 of its tanks for virtually no losses to the outnumbered Israelis. Projecting Iraqi ineptness in these wars to the whole of the Middle East, or Iraq now or in the future is fraught with problems however. For example, the speed and skill with which Egypt crossed the Suez at the outbreak of the '73 war took Israel by surprise, as did the resilience of their infantry to sudden armored counter-attack. The lesson from previous wars had been Arab infantry unsupported by armor would break readily in these circumstances, but Israel paid a high price in its armor-heavy immediate counter-attacks against the Egyptian crossings. For that matter there is always “Mission accomplished” and “We’ll be greeted with flowers” as mis-lessons from the last war. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/37 "2010-09-19T15:47:29Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > In a First World Economy you not only have lots of money to pour into high quality soldiers, but - because of political and economic pressures - you don’t have any many soldiers per capita as a little country like Iraq does, further allowing for selection of better soldiers and emphasis on training them. At the time of the first Gulf War, the ratio of soldiers to civilians in Iraq was (more or less) about one soldier fro every 25 civilians; in the USA, it one a soldier for every 150 civilians. The U.S, though, still had a much larger armed forces. > > Retort: > (1) Whaddabout oil money? What about it? How rich do you think these countries are? GDP Per Capita: Israel $26,796 Saudi Arabia ~$16,000 Syria $4,887 Jordan $3,828 Egypt $2,450 Not one of Israel’s actual neighbours is remotely a First World nation in terms of economy. (I didn’t include Lebanon because it’s not important in this discussion.) I didn’t include Iraq either; Iraq prior to being blown to bits in 2003 was richer than Syria but it sure as hell wasn’t in Israel’s league. Israel’s armed forces is typical of a country with that level of income; concentrated and highly professional. These are recent numbers but the gap in 1967, 1973 and such was similar. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168/38 "2010-09-19T20:06:34Z")
This article says that a lot of the problem with the Iraqi and Afghan armies come down to logistics. Logistics problems are caused by corruption in Iraq and aggravated by illiteracy in Afghanistan. [http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlog/20100915.aspx](http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlog/20100915.aspx) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-middle-eastern-military-forces-incompetant/554168.md?page=1)