# Are milk and cheese really full of pus cells? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010 "2013-02-21T21:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/1 "2013-02-21T21:11:21Z")
I heard someone say last night that you shouldn’t eat cheese because it’s “full of pus.” A bit of googling indicates that this is a common vegan/anti-milk talking point. [For example:](http://www.drheise.com/powercheese.htm) > [@](#): > > GOT PUS? > > The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) allows 750 million pus cells in every liter of milk (about two pounds). In Europe, regulators allow 400 million pus cells per liter. France and Italy are known for their magnificent cheeses. Perhaps that’s their secret: Less pus! > > Since it takes 10 pounds of milk to make one pound of cheese, a pound of cheese can contain up to 7.5 billion pus cells. If your American cheese is sliced so that there are 16 slices to a pound, that single slice of American or Swiss can contain over 468 million pus cells. That’s not the only source for the info, but it’s chock full of numbers, so it’s gotta be true. Maybe. So, what’s the story? Are we sucking down gallons of cow pus every year — and if so, why does it taste so good melted on nachos? ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/2 "2013-02-21T21:27:11Z")
can you define what a pus cell is? I wouldn’t be surprised that foods contain cells. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/3 "2013-02-21T21:28:49Z")
Why is pretty much everything on this posted by anti-dairy people and sites? That would seem to be the answer in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/4 "2013-02-21T21:29:32Z")
> [@Sigene](#): > > can you define what a pus cell is? > > I wouldn’t be surprised that foods contain cells. [Pus contains, among other things, leukocytes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pus) So presumably a “pus cell” is a white blood cell. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/5 "2013-02-21T21:29:35Z")
No, I can’t really define “pus cell.” (I probably should’ve just left the subject at “pus.”) This isn’t my sneaky way of trying to persuade people to ditch their cheese, because I love cheese. The story sounds totally hinky to me, but not in some concrete way, which is why I’m bringing it to the board. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/6 "2013-02-21T21:29:38Z")
Google tells me human cells are roughly 1/250mm across; so 1 cubic mm holds 15.6 million cells; 450M cells would be 26 mm^3, about an inch by an inch by a millimetre. (including a boatload of assumptions, that cow cells are about the sam). 26 parts per million of that contaminant. Actually, if this is the upper limit, probably from really sick cows, then I suspect the typical value is a lot lower. Considering what is pus - dead white blood cells - I would hope that the white blood cells in milk would be dead after the mandatory pasteurization. The question is whether they died from the treatment process or from close encounters of the bacterial kind during the milk generation process? ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/7 "2013-02-21T21:32:53Z")
Milk contains white blood cells, there’s nothing harmful about that. From what I understadn though that if the milk becomes contaminated by bacteria close to source the number of white blood cells will increase, so the number of white blood cells in milk is a fairly reliable indicator to bacterial contamination, not that the white blood cells themselves are harmful (possibly the opposite, but IDK). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/8 "2013-02-21T21:33:13Z")
Of course, the first problem is that there isn’t anything that’s properly called a “pus cell.” The term is used to refer to disease-fighting leukocytes (white blood cells). Pus contains both fluid and dead leukocytes. The FDA has a standard for how many somatic cells, mainly leukocytes, may be contained in milk, since there is a correlation between this count and the level of infection in a cow. [Somatic Cell Count.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_cell_count) But calling this an “allowance for pus cells” is just propaganda. Calling anything that contains dead leukocytes “full of pus” means that most animal products would qualify. Of course, a slice of cheese or a spoonful of yogurt contains far more bacterial cells than leukocytes, so you could also say they are full of bacteria. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/9 "2013-02-21T21:36:21Z")
Looks to me like an exaggeration of the facts: [Somatic cell count - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_cell_count) First off, what exactly is a "pus cell’? That alone should let you know that there’s something bogus about it. Anyway, the numbers they’re on aboutare about on if you’re counting all Somatic Cells, but they’re not exactly the same as “pus cells”. Basically, most of that is white blood cells and they count them to determine if there’s any pathogens in the milk. The idea of not allowing too many is just that, if there are, then it means the cow may have a disease. Second, it’s coming from an animal, there’s going to be gross sounding stuff in it, especially if it’s being presented with bias. I’m sure some milk has some amount of pus and blood and other stuff in it. But the only things I can find on any of that sort of stuff is assertions without any cites and I’d guess it just gets passed on because of confirmation bias. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/10 "2013-02-21T21:37:41Z")
And the maximum allowable somatic cell count level is 750 000 cells per mL, so at least they didn’t pull the number from their posteriors: [http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodSafety/Product-SpecificInformation/MilkSafety/NationalConferenceonInterstateMilkShipmentsNCIMSModelDocuments/UCM209789.pdf](http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodSafety/Product-SpecificInformation/MilkSafety/NationalConferenceonInterstateMilkShipmentsNCIMSModelDocuments/UCM209789.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/11 "2013-02-21T21:42:55Z")
Actually a percentage of ‘pus’ is the bacteria that caused the infection, so since most cheeses have bacterial cultures (although not the same ones that cause pyogenic abcesses) maybe that’s where there getting this information. The only other thing I could think of would be mastitis in the cow giving the milk, but in the US all milk is pasteurized before being made into cheese, so it is unlikely there are any live organisms. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/12 "2013-02-21T21:44:58Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Actually, if this is the upper limit, probably from really sick cows, then I suspect the typical value is a lot lower. Right. “750 million cells” is the point at which the FDA will reject something. This does not equal “all milk contains 750 million pus cells per liter”. And if that squicks you out, you’d best just stop eating, period, right now, because there’s a whole lot of stuff a whole lot more revolting than pus cells, whatever that is, that the FDA considers “no health hazard for humans”. You can read all about it in the FDA’s [Defect Levels Handbook](http://www.fda.gov/food/guidancecomplianceregulatoryinformation/guidancedocuments/sanitation/ucm056174.htm). It’s great meal-time reading. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/13 "2013-02-21T21:53:16Z")
Well, here’s the take on the subjet from the [“not milkman”](http://www.notmilk.com/pusmilk.html) ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/14 "2013-02-21T21:58:33Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > You can read all about it in the FDA’s [Defect Levels Handbook](http://www.fda.gov/food/guidancecomplianceregulatoryinformation/guidancedocuments/sanitation/ucm056174.htm). It’s great meal-time reading. Here’s [a short quiz about the standards](http://brunching.com/insectparts.html) that will help people think about the kinds of non-food items that are present in their food. Note that this is a pretty old quiz, so the standards may have changed since then (but I bet they haven’t been lowered to zero). ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/15 "2013-02-21T22:41:38Z")
But organic food is 100% free of anything you might find disgusting, right? Right? ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/16 "2013-02-21T22:59:40Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Well, here’s the take on the subjet from the [“not milkman”](http://www.notmilk.com/pusmilk.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > Author Jim Dickrell reports that the level of pus cells has been rising ever since farmers began using Monsanto’s genetically engineered bovine growth hormone. Good thing the milk I get says “From cows not treated with growth hormones” (but with a footnote that there is no difference according to the FDA). Also,as far as those hormones go, untreated milk has hormones in it too, notably insulin-like growth factor, which is indeed harmful, causing cancer among other things (when injected), but it isn’t absorbed by the body when ingested (note also that bovine IGF-1 is identical to human IGF-1, so you aren’t ingesting anything foreign either way): > [@](#): > > Other studies have shown that while IGF-1 is not destroyed by the pasteurization process, any “extra” IGF-1 that may occur in a given batch of milk from treated or untreated cows has no effect on the organism which ingested it, because IGF-1 is denatured in the stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/17 "2013-02-21T23:05:43Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > But organic food is 100% free of anything you might find disgusting, right? Right? But a few insect parts are better than pesticides and other toxic chemicals. Well, OK, a lot more than a “few” insect parts, from **DCnDC** ’s link (this one stands out because of the number, but many others are up to the several hundred range, if for generally larger portions): > [@](#): > > HOPS Insects (AOAC 967.23) Average of more than **2,500 aphids per 10 grams** No mention of organic either. I also imagine this is a big dilemma for a vegetarian or especially vegan, presumably why so many say that insects aren’t animals. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/18 "2013-02-21T23:06:28Z")
oops, GQ. Respectfully withdrawn! ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/19 "2013-02-21T23:53:09Z")
The bacterium is staphilococcus, right? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010/20 "2013-02-22T00:20:40Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > No mention of organic either. I also imagine this is a big dilemma for a vegetarian or especially vegan, presumably why so many say that insects aren’t animals. I’m curious about this statement. Is the point to show that vegan/vegetarian people are hypocrites, and since they can’t avoid eating _all_ animals, any attempt to eat fewer is stupid? I swear, for as much as the stereotype is that vegans/vegetarians are “'militant” and push their beliefs on everyone, I encounter way more asshole meat eaters who salivate at the thought of pointing out inconsistencies in their diet choices. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-milk-and-cheese-really-full-of-pus-cells/651010.md?page=2)